Salvation and Good Works

[Carol_Coombe]

I am writing from southern Africa, where I have lived for 40 years. I was born and baptised a (Canadian Convention) Baptist - founded by dour Scots - but am preparing to become a Catholic Christian.

I have worked hard through a number of issues which are new to me: the centrality of the Eucharist rather than the sermon, transubstantiation, assumption and the Immaculate Conception, the Catholic interpretation of divine, sin, grace, faith, caritas, forgiveness, religion, repentance, resurrection, sacred, salvation inter alia. These are words that slip easily off the tongue but require exploration in the modern global paradigm. They are just as important as issues of dogma and doctrine, and have often proved a stumbling block for me. I must understand the words before I can understand the concept.

In this case, I am confused about the current position of the Catholic Church with regard to the balance between (1) being a believer in order to take advantage of the eternal salvation that Christ’s sacrifice offers to each of us, and (2) our responsibility in this life as practising Christians to follow Christ’s example in caring, healing, supporting, feeding, helping, sharing, and demonstrating our love for each equally divine individual loved by God.

In Africa, over 30 million people are dying undignified deaths in isolation and desperation because of the HIV pandemic. Millions more live in dire poverty, without the resources of education, health services, social support or, in many cases, spiritual support. Our countries are riven by drought, economic collapse, and corrupt or incompetent leadership.

In my own Catholic parish, I have been stunned by the overwhelming focus on salvation for the worthy redeemed, life everlasting for those Catholics who believe and worship, and the much lesser focus on the responsibilities which individual Christians have for their brothers and sisters who suffer. The hymns, the readings, the prayers (check for yourself in the missals) tend to look toward eternal gratification for the decent Catholic Christian.

Is this common elsewhere? Where is there a discussion taking place about the correct and worthy balance between salvation and social responsibility? I understand that Pope Benedict’s first pronouncement was on love, and that some of these issues may have been addressed by him. But that does not mean it is trickling down to the parishes.

For myself, I find it hard, perhaps because of my Baptist upbringing, to think a great deal about eternal salvation: I cannot know what will happen (along with Einstein) but must trust that our God of Love will take me back to Him. What is more important for me is what I can give in this life, guided by the example of Jesus of Nazareth, my brother, my mentor and guide.

But what of the ordinary Catholic parishioner - what is the take on this issue?

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

Good works are good, but they can’t buy our way into Heaven. Faith is important, but it isn’t a free pass to Heaven.

What gets us into Heaven is us chosing God, honestly. When we truly chose God, we make ourselves have faith. When we truly chose God, we do good works not for ourselves, but for God.

Obviously we should care about the people we’re helping, but how you do that is through God. When you work at a shelter or donate money, etc, you may not know who you’re helping, but you can love them as a fellow child of God.

Sometimes it can be discouraging because there are so many needy and so many people who don’t seem to care, but God is working with all of us. He’s always there for those suffering the greatest and He’s always opening the hearts of those who hesitate to help.

Welcome to the church!

 

[guanophore]

I have worked hard through a number of issues which are new to me: the centrality of the Eucharist rather than the sermon, transubstantiation, assumption and the Immaculate Conception, the Catholic interpretation of divine, sin, grace, faith, caritas, forgiveness, religion, repentance, resurrection, sacred, salvation inter alia.

That sure is amazing. I think you are ready for an honorary doctorate!
To anticipate the question at the end of your post here, I think the average catholic could not pronounce some of these things, and has no idea what they mean.

In this case, I am confused about the current position of the Catholic Church with regard to the balance between (1) being a believer in order to take advantage of the eternal salvation that Christ’s sacrifice offers to each of us, and (2) our responsibility in this life as practising Christians to follow Christ’s example in caring, healing, supporting, feeding, helping, sharing, and demonstrating our love for each equally divine individual loved by God. 'QUOTE]

My SD says “don’t become so heavenly that you are not earthly good”. Some of us like to be at worship, and neglect the corporate works of mercy.
Carol Coombe;1990271:

In my own Catholic parish, I have been stunned by the overwhelming focus on salvation for the worthy redeemed, life everlasting for those Catholics who believe and worship, and the much lesser focus on the responsibilities which individual Christians have for their brothers and sisters who suffer. The hymns, the readings, the prayers (check for yourself in the missals) tend to look toward eternal gratification for the decent Catholic Christian. 'QUOTE]

It is hard for me to speak to this, not having been to your parish. But, consider this. the Mass is where the faithful go to become anchored, and be fed. This is why the whole focus is on the Holy Sacrifice, and as you point out,the looking forward of eternal reward. Infused with this, the faithful are then supposedly equipped to go out into the world and do the works of mercy that the world so desperately needs. As the dismissal states “go in peace to love and serve the Lord”.

Is this common elsewhere? Where is there a discussion taking place about the correct and worthy balance between salvation and social responsibility? I understand that Pope Benedict’s first pronouncement was on love, and that some of these issues may have been addressed by him. But that does not mean it is trickling down to the parishes.

Ideally I think that the Mass is not the place for that discussion, though we hear it in the liturgy of the Word, and homily. the actual enactment and embodiment of being Christ to the world happens after the Mass (or should).

For myself, I find it hard, perhaps because of my Baptist upbringing, to think a great deal about eternal salvation: I cannot know what will happen (along with Einstein) but must trust that our God of Love will take me back to Him. What is more important for me is what I can give in this life, guided by the example of Jesus of Nazareth, my brother, my mentor and guide.

Perhaps this is where your lack of believe in the Real PResence leaves you wanting? If a person is truly fed, then one is within that eternal salvation at the moment of communion. It changes one’s perspective on everything, oneself, the world, and one’s calling within it.

But what of the ordinary Catholic parishioner - what is the take on this issue?

I have noted to you several times that you have worked harder at your faith than any ten “ordinary parishioners”. If they would all apply themselves to the pursuit of understanding as you do, we would truly have the Kingdom of God in our midst!

 

[Nita]

What comes to my mind is our Lord’s teaching on the two great commandments; the **first and the greatest **is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, … (Mt. 22: 36-39). Focusing on God immediately brings one into touch with the eternal, heavenly realities. Once this is properly developed, the second (love of neighbor) will automatically flow from it. When one loves God, one wants to spend eternity with Him; one wants to please Him by doing what He asks.

In the U.S., I think we went thru a period where catechesis focused on the second great commandment without laying a solid foundation of the first; sort of a social action gospel. It doesn’t work; it isn’t working. I think you’ll find the most charitable people are those who have an intense love of God and desire to be with Him in heaven. If you want a society that cares for its members, they must first be converted.

I’m going to speak now of my personal experience. I’m 67 years old. I would say I had very good catechetical instruction. I learned about God, prayer, why I existed. I wanted to spend eternity in heaven, knew from the gospels how Jesus taught us to live. We didn’t have “social action” types of lessons. But, I knew that when someone was in need Jesus wanted me to help in any way I could.

Nita

 

[dcdurel]

In my own Catholic parish, I have been stunned by the overwhelming focus on salvation for the worthy redeemed, life everlasting for those Catholics who believe and worship, and the much lesser focus on the responsibilities which individual Christians have for their brothers and sisters who suffer. The hymns, the readings, the prayers (check for yourself in the missals) tend to look toward eternal gratification for the decent Catholic Christian.

The hymns are not always in accord with Catholic Church teachings, nor do they always reflect the basics of salvation.

The readings focus on salvation history, but they are not the totality of the Gospel. The Church teaches that the liturgy is the priviledged place for Catechizing the people of God. Catechesis is teaching the whole Catholic faith which comes from the apostles, who learned from Jesus, thus, Catechesis is teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. An absolutley necessary aspect of the faith is to keep the commandments in order to enter heaven, because if we don’t keep the commandments and if we don’t repent, we lose the grace of salvation we received at baptism. If you don’t understand this, you were probably not catechized correctly.
All the commandments are summed up in love of God and love of neighbor.
Both are necessary to enter heaven. Thus, if we don’t love our neighbor, which entails helping them with the necessities of life, food, shelter, clothing, etc. then we cannot enter heaven. The Church teaches exactly what Jesus teaches in Matthew chapter 25.

The reason you never hear these teachings at Mass is because of a false interpretation of Vatican II spread by Catholic "scholars",  which presumes that the teachings of the Gospel are primarily  what is written in scripture   ( a Protestant idea), rather than what the apostles taught, thus the Catholic faith in its entirety is rarely taught at mass.  That is why Catholics today don't even know the basics, don't believe the  moral teachings are important, (they rarely hear all of them at mass), and don't know how we obtain grace to be free of sin in order that we can obey the commandments.

The General Directory for Catechesis, authorized by JPII, mentions this void in the knowledge of Catholics in regards to moral teachings and grace.
Only those who teach all the teachings of the faith, especially the teachings on the commandments, and the sacraments, as presented in the Catechism are the ones proclaiming the full Gospel.
If you want to learn more on what the real Gospel is, and if you want to change things, then study Pope Paul VI “Evangelization in the Modern World”, Pope John Paul II’s encyclicals Mission of the Redeemer and CATECHESI TRADENDAE and especially the** General Directory for Catechesis. **

Let me assure you. No where does the Church teach that the primary way to proclaim the Gospel, using words, is to give an explanation of the readings at mass.
B esides our example, the primary way to proclaim the Gospel, after the initial proclamation, is to teach the whole Catholic faith, using the Catechism as a sure norm for teaching the faith.

Unfortunetly most Catholics only get an explanation of the readings, because most Catholic scholars have no idea what the Gospel is so there is no one to teach the priests what the Gospel is and how to proclaim the Gospel.
Until Catholic scholars and bishops, humble themselves and submit to the absolute leadership of the Popes in the above cited writings, then nothing will change.

 

[Cranch]

I have worked hard through a number of issues which are new to me: the centrality of the Eucharist rather than the sermon, transubstantiation, assumption and the Immaculate Conception, the Catholic interpretation of divine, sin, grace, faith, caritas, forgiveness, religion, repentance, resurrection, sacred, salvation inter alia. These are words that slip easily off the tongue but require exploration in the modern global paradigm. They are just as important as issues of dogma and doctrine, and have often proved a stumbling block for me. I must understand the words before I can understand the concept.

You do not mention the study of suffering in a Catholic context. I know you work with those who suffer. You may find this Apostolic letter of John Paul II helpful in providing perspective: SALVIFICI DOLORIS

 

[puzzleannie]

research the social justice teaching of the Church, it is an essential component of the command at the end of Mass, go forth to love and serve the world. Without obedience to that command, as every pope of the last 100 years has reminded us, we have not participated in the Mass.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

You do not mention the study of suffering in a Catholic context. I know you work with those who suffer. You may find this Apostolic letter of John Paul II helpful in providing perspective: SALVIFICI DOLORIS

I thank you for this. In fact, when I started writing on suffering, and the suffering of Christ, and completing the suffering of Christ, I realised I was really stuck on the last - completing the suffering of Christ in the Pauline sense. So I have in fact taken account of the Salvifici Doloris and commentaries on it, but have not had time to work further on it.

I wonder if you, or others, have any commentaries that you can share?

I wonder if there are two (or more) definitions of ‘good works’. One is actually getting out there into the hospice, or the children’s ward, or the jumble sale, and doing the do. The other is more a question of being exemplary, living a life which exemplifies the ineffable ‘goodness’ of Christ, without necessarily being out there doing? Nolan has suggested both possibilities in Jesus Today.

For those who are more inclined to a spiritual, contemplative live, the latter might equate to ‘active good works’ but I am not sure.

Blessings

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Perhaps this is where your lack of believe in the Real PResence leaves you wanting? If a person is truly fed, then one is within that eternal salvation at the moment of communion. It changes one’s perspective on everything, oneself, the world, and one’s calling within it.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply! Small problem - as a Catholic would-be, I am forbidden to take communion, for the most part, although the Bishop flapped away the official position, and I was able to receive during Retreat. So although I *do *believe in the Real Presence, I *am *surrounded by the Real Presence, and am more aware of that than anything else with regard to faith, I am not admitted to communion, despite being baptised (as a Baptist, full immersion, the whole bang-shoot).

This has been a burden for me: I go mass three times a week, and watch littlies taking communion; I hear people saying happy are we etc,. but know that I am excluded from the happy, healed throng. I am determined to get there!

Blessings

 

[Carol_Coombe]

What comes to my mind is our Lord’s teaching on the two great commandments; the **first and the greatest **is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, … (Mt. 22: 36-39). Focusing on God immediately brings one into touch with the eternal, heavenly realities. Once this is properly developed, the second (love of neighbor) will automatically flow from it. When one loves God, one wants to spend eternity with Him; one wants to please Him by doing what He asks.

In the U.S., I think we went thru a period where catechesis focused on the second great commandment without laying a solid foundation of the first; sort of a social action gospel. It doesn’t work; it isn’t working. I think you’ll find the most charitable people are those who have an intense love of God and desire to be with Him in heaven. If you want a society that cares for its members, they must first be converted.

I’m going to speak now of my personal experience. I’m 67 years old. I would say I had very good catechetical instruction. I learned about God, prayer, why I existed. I wanted to spend eternity in heaven, knew from the gospels how Jesus taught us to live. We didn’t have “social action” types of lessons. But, I knew that when someone was in need Jesus wanted me to help in any way I could.

Nita

Thank you! This is a lovely reply. Especially as I am just a little younger than you are. It is perhaps as my SD says, very simply, from St Augustine: *Love God, and do as you will. *If you are in God, and He in you [according to the faith], then your actions spring necessarily from that Presence.

Blessings and thank you

 

[jack_hawkins]

Thank you! This is a lovely reply. Especially as I am just a little younger than you are. It is perhaps as my SD says, very simply, from St Augustine: *Love God, and do as you will. *If you are in God, and He in you [according to the faith], then your actions spring necessarily from that Presence.

Blessings and thank you

brilliant quote:thumbsup:

 

[guanophore]

I thank you for this. In fact, when I started writing on suffering, and the suffering of Christ, and completing the suffering of Christ, I realised I was really stuck on the last - completing the suffering of Christ in the Pauline sense. So I have in fact taken account of the Salvifici Doloris and commentaries on it, but have not had time to work further on it.

I wonder if you, or others, have any commentaries that you can share?

I wonder if there are two (or more) definitions of ‘good works’. One is actually getting out there into the hospice, or the children’s ward, or the jumble sale, and doing the do. The other is more a question of being exemplary, living a life which exemplifies the ineffable ‘goodness’ of Christ, without necessarily being out there doing? Nolan has suggested both possibilities in Jesus Today.

For those who are more inclined to a spiritual, contemplative live, the latter might equate to ‘active good works’ but I am not sure.

Blessings

yes, I think you are right. there are inner “works” that pertain to personal holiness and obligations to God, and there are outward “good works”. Catholics think of these as the corporate works of mercy. 2447 The works of mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in his spiritual and bodily necessities. Instructing, advising, consoling, comforting are spiritual works of mercy, as are forgiving and bearing wrongs patiently. The corporal works of mercy consist especially in feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and burying the dead. Among all these, giving alms to the poor is one of the chief witnesses to fraternal charity: it is also a work of justice pleasing to God:

He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none and he who has food must do likewise. But give for alms those things which are within; and behold, everything is clean for you. If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?

If you go to this link:

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2447.htm

and choose “enter the catechimsm at this point” it will take you directly to the context.

 

[guanophore]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply! Small problem - as a Catholic would-be, I am forbidden to take communion, for the most part, although the Bishop flapped away the official position, and I was able to receive during Retreat. So although I *do *believe in the Real Presence, I *am *surrounded by the Real Presence, and am more aware of that than anything else with regard to faith, I am not admitted to communion, despite being baptised (as a Baptist, full immersion, the whole bang-shoot).

Well, don’t dismiss the ‘flapping’ of you bishop He has the ability to discern whether you are catholic in your heart, and dispense you to take the Eucharist. As I have told you, you are already more catholic than most catholics!

This has been a burden for me: I go mass three times a week, and watch littlies taking communion; I hear people saying happy are we etc,. but know that I am excluded from the happy, healed throng. I am determined to get there!

Blessings

Surely your bishop has seen and approved your baptism of desire. You misunderstood the liturgy! It says "happy are those who are CALLED! That includes YOU! Your determination proves that. As a cradle Catholic, I did not have to struggle with these issues until after I returned from a long sojourn into heresies in various protestant communities. However, after returning, I have had to work through them all, just because of the protestant influence I was steeped in. I just went to confession, told the priest my struggles, and prayed that God would “help my unbelief”. At some point, you may just need to make a decision to accept the teachings of the church because they are the teachings of the church, and trust that God will supplement your faith with understanding later. It worked for me, and now I am growing in my “belief” by leaps and bounds.

 

[Linkowski]

Good works are good, but they can’t buy our way into Heaven. **Faith is important, but it isn’t a free pass to Heaven.

What gets us into Heaven is us chosing God, honestly. When we truly chose God, we make ourselves have faith. When we truly chose God, we do good works not for ourselves, but for God.**…

Nobody has the wherewithal to choose Christ…

Isa 53:6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

Romans 3:10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
Romans 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

We are all fallen man and Christ says that the only way for anyone to come to God is through Christ and that person must be chosen by God…

Joh 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that **no one can come to Me **unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

Joh 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

That word draw is like the drawing of water…not a simple wooing.

The problem is that you do not understand that faith is a gift from God and comes at the hearing of the gospel…

Ro 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?”
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

So…the faith that we preach is this…

You are a sinner based on God’s law and you must repent of your sin and turn to Christ as Lord…as a disciple commiting to follow Him. With this repentant heart over your sin…then trust Him as Savior…He died for you…

Ro 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1Pe 2:24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

You cannot do anything to get to heaven…

Ro 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

This is not a simple - I believe about Jesus - it is I believe in Jesus. Repent from sin and turn to Christ as Lord and Savior…

Ac 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Mr 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Ac 3:19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

There is nothing we can do to merit heaven. Empty yourself of your own goodness and submit to God’s righteousness which is a gift to you if you will repent and believe. May God open your eyes and lift you up!!

Craig

Ro 10:3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

 

[guanophore]

Nobody has the wherewithal to choose Christ…

Does that mean that you beleive in predestination? God created only certain persons to be saved, and the rest to be damned, and we have no say in the matter?

We are all fallen man and Christ says that the only way for anyone to come to God is through Christ and that person must be chosen by God…

Bless you my brother! This resonates with Catholic teaching. You are near to the truth!

Joh 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

That word draw is like the drawing of water…not a simple wooing.

Yes, of course, but are you saying that people make no choice in the matter?

The problem is that you do not understand that faith is a gift from God and comes at the hearing of the gospel…

Please explain where you drew this conclusion.

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Doesn;'t this seem to say that people must respond to the call? How can people call back to God when they are called without some action on their part?

So…the faith that we preach is this…

Who is this 'we"?

You are a sinner based on God’s law and you must repent of your sin and turn to Christ as Lord…as a disciple commiting to follow Him. With this repentant heart over your sin…then trust Him as Savior…He died for you…

You cannot do anything to get to heaven…

Ro 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

I think you are confusing justification, and sanctification. Have you forgotten that nothing unholy can enter heaven? If a person does not become holy after they are saved, then what would be the point of “as a disciple committing to follow Him”? It doens’t stop with the sinners prayer, it only begins!

This is not a simple - I believe about Jesus - it is I believe in Jesus. Repent from sin and turn to Christ as Lord and Savior…

There is nothing we can do to merit heaven. Empty yourself of your own goodness and submit to God’s righteousness which is a gift to you if you will repent and believe. May God open your eyes and lift you up!!

Craig

I gather from this impassioned presentaton of the gospel that you are genuinely desiring to share the truth of Christ with all of us grossly misled Catholics? While I think your motives are good, you are in danger of violating the rules of the forum:

“Posting material that can reasonably be construed as intended to proselytize Catholics”

“Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.”

“Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.”

Ro 10:3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

In this you imply that Catholic are not knowing abou God’s righteousness, and are seeking to establish their own through " works". It is clear you do not understand Catholic teaching on salvation, and are trying to promote your protestant understanding instead.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

**There is nothing **we can do to merit heaven.

you must repent of your sin and turn to Christ as Lord…as a disciple **commiting to follow **Him. With this repentant heart over your sin…**then trust **Him as Savior…

You really make Protestant theology very confusing. First I can do nothing to merit heaven, but then I am supposed to repent, turn, follow, and trust and then I will merit heaven?

…in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions… Col. 1:24

That silly Paul. Surely he knows that nothing is lacking in Christ’s afflictions? Even if there was, there is no way he could make it up.

God bless

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Two questions here:

1. My understanding is that God has chosen each of us before we were born, and that we do not choose Him. What we must do is to turn and confront Him - which is what Jesus reminded us we must do - in worship, for salvation, and for grace.
2. Surely Paul talked about our completing Christ’s suffering. I mentioned earlier that I am stuck on this concept in my study of suffering. It is a matter for much further insight for me, and if anyone has anything to say or suggest, I would be grateful.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Two questions here:

1. My understanding is that God has chosen each of us before we were born, and that we do not choose Him. What we must do is to turn and confront Him - which is what Jesus reminded us we must do - in worship, for salvation, and for grace

What is the question on this?

1. Surely Paul talked about our completing Christ’s suffering. I mentioned earlier that I am stuck on this concept in my study of suffering. It is a matter for much further insight for me, and if anyone has anything to say or suggest, I would be grateful.

Christ completed his mission which was to die, and rise again to conquer sin and death. That sacrifice is already complete on the cross. His suffering is how we should imitate him. Are we not called Christians? Remember Jesus said, that we must deny our very self, and to take up our cross?

What comes into mind when taking up our cross? Just as Christ suffer, we do must suffer the trails of this material world. The difference between Protestant concept of salvation is that there is no need for suffering, but in Catholicism, we must suffer and bare our crosses.

Many the saints suffered and offer their suffering as a sacrifice or offering to God for the sins of the men. St. Bernadette during her final years suffer many illnesses, which only strengthen her resolve for the love of God.

If you look at Christian history, many of the Christians were martyred for their faith. Many of them died for Jesus. Did they suffer and bear their cross?

Here is one example St. Cecilia:

Cultivated young patrician woman whose ancestors loomed large in Rome’s history. She vowed her virginity to God, but her parents married her to Valerian of Trastevere. Cecilia told her new husband that she was accompanied by an angel, but in order to see it, he must be purified. He agreed to the purification, and was baptised; returning from the ceremony, he found her in prayer accompanied by a praying angel. The angel placed a crown on each of their heads, and offered Valerian a favor; the new convert asked that his brother be baptised.

The two brothers developed a ministry of giving proper burial to martyred Christians. In their turn they were arrested and martyred for their faith. Cecilia buried them at her villa on the Apprian Way, and was arrested for the action. She was ordered to sacrifice to false gods; when she refused, she was martyred in her turn.

The Acta of Cecilia includes the following: “While the profane music of her wedding was heard, Cecilia was singing in her heart a hymn of love for Jesus, her true spouse.” It was this phrase that led to her association with music, singers, musicians, etc.

 

[Linkowski]

You really make Protestant theology very confusing. First I can do nothing to merit heaven, but then I am supposed to repent, turn, follow, and trust and then I will merit heaven?

That silly Paul. Surely he knows that nothing is lacking in Christ’s afflictions? Even if there was, there is no way he could make it up.

God bless

The message is preached from the word just as the apostles did but the repentance and faith are gifts of God and the work of God. You cannot call them human works. But, those gifts do not comeapart from the preaching of the message of the gospel.

The CCC acknowledges faith as a gift from God…

162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: “Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith.” To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; it must be “working through charity,” abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.

Next…

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:

In my flesh refers to Paul’s physical pain. When he says I do my share on behalf of His body (Which is the church) he is indicating that the physical pain he endures at the hands of Christ-hating persecutors is the result of what he does to benefit and build the church. It was not his personality that offended and brought hostile injury to him, but his ministry for the Body of Christ.

In what sense were Paul’s sufferings filling up that which is lacking in Christ’s afflictions? In that Paul was receiving the persecution that was intended for Christ. Jesus, having ascended to heaven, was out of their reach. But because His enemies had not filled up all the injuries they wanted to inflict on Him, they turned their hatred on those who preached the gospel. It was in that sense that Paul filled up what was lacking in Christ’s afflictions. In 2 Corinthians 1:5 he wrote that “the sufferings of Christ are ours in abundance.” He bore in his body the marks of the blows intended for Christ (Gal. 6:17; cf. 2 Cor. 11:23–28). He not only suffered for Christ, but also for the sake of the church (2 Tim. 2:10). Those who wish to represent Christ and serve His church must be willing to suffer for His Name.

 

[guanophore]

Two questions here:

1. My understanding is that God has chosen each of us before we were born, and that we do not choose Him. What we must do is to turn and confront Him - which is what Jesus reminded us we must do - in worship, for salvation, and for grace.
2. Surely Paul talked about our completing Christ’s suffering. I mentioned earlier that I am stuck on this concept in my study of suffering. It is a matter for much further insight for me, and if anyone has anything to say or suggest, I would be grateful.

Making suffering meaningful when it so often seems senseless it the biggest challenge. You will hear Catholics say “offer it up”. It is an exhortation to join one’s sufferings with those of the cross “making up what is lacking in the suffering of Christ”. Now, we know that Christ’s suffering was entirely efficacious. However, in uniting our meager sufferings to His, they become redemptive for us. As he instructs us “take up your cross daily and follow”. By embracing suffering, and uniting ourselves to Him in the midst of the suffering, our attitudes become conformed to His will. This attitude enables us to become more holy in the midst of the suffering. I think it is not so much a “concept”, although it is that, as it is an experience. Sometimes we have nothing to offer but tears and grief, and so these become our prayer.