Salvation and the Goodness of God

[Yep]

New here, and I’d like a little theological advice.

I’ve effectively lost my faith after converting some five years back. I’m not happy about this, but it’s where I am.

The reason why Is that after watching a YouTube video by David Bentley Hart on universal salvation, I realized that I agreed with him. If god let’s even one soul rot in hell, it’s hard for me to see god’s nature as “good” in a meaningful sense.

I’ve read a lot of apologetics, books and talked to a lot of people to regain my faith in hell, but I still believe that if eternal hell exists it’s contradictory with gods nature as good. I’ve read Handbook of Catholic apologetics, fundamentals of catholic dogma, read Feser’s articles in response to Hart etc.

I’d like to be my old faith of Catholicism again, but I need some help to get back there. Any advice?

 

[PennyinCanada]

I’ve read a lot of apologetics, books and talked to a lot of people to regain my faith in hell, but I still believe that if eternal hell exists it’s contradictory with gods nature as good. I’ve read Handbook of Catholic apologetics, fundamentals of catholic dogma, read Feser’s articles in response to Hart etc.

Hi and Welcome!
You’ve read a lot so I’m not sure what we can say to help you.
When you look at Jesus on the cross, does that look like a God that wants anyone to go to hell?

 

[Dan_Defender]

Jesus spoke about Hell and it is also featured in the book of Revelation. That is good enough for me, no need to read scholarly books on it.

 

[Flopfoot]

Do you want us to convince you that it’s ok for God to let people go to hell, or do you want us to help you return to the church despite still having doubts about whether God lets people go to hell?

 

[Yep]

When I look at Jesus on the cross, or as a child in Mary’s hands, I see nothing, but love for humanity. God loves us. I see that as so apparent in my own life, he’s doled our so much help that I’ve never merited.

It’s a fickle difficulty with the faith. Depending on chains of interlocking logic a mile long. It contrasts with my own human experience. My own understanding of god. However, my doubts are heavy as a mill stone while swiming, even if they are fragile in nature.

I love Him. I pray to Him multiple times a day. I have hope I will find him, the struggle will continue.

 

[Yep]

Good clarifying question! I’m seeking to understand how god can let his creations suffer eternal torment.

 

[Flopfoot]

I’ve struggled with this idea too and written on the forums before. If it’s a punishment, it seems greater than the crime. If it’s a deterrent, how does it deter people who don’t know it’s there till they die? If it’s rehabilitation, what’s the point of fixing someone if they are never allowed out? If it’s a choice, why would someone who knows it’s a bad place to go rationally choose to go there? Sometimes I would just decide not to let it bother me and be Catholic anyway and let other Catholics believe that people might go to hell while I privately doubted it.

At the moment I think of it like “painting yourself into a corner and having nowhere to go”. No one wants to go to hell. But if someone hated God so much that they could not bear to be with him for eternity in heaven, then going to hell might be the lesser of two evils for that person, so God lets them go there.

 

[tomo_pomo]

I did not read many books, I can only offer my humble opinion.
I believe we go to hell precisely because God loves us and he respects our free will. We have signs of heaven and hell, as well as revelations and if we chose to reject God then he will accept it, with broken heart of course. But Gods Mercy is above anything so if we decide to come back, He will accept us and rejoice together

 

[Yep]

“Painting yourself into a corner” is definitely something to chew on.

In the past I was a believer massa damnata, and believed most people I knew were going to suffer eternally, including myself.

If he’ll is less suffering than the presence of god, than I’ve never known anybody, personally speaking, with that disposition. I’ll think on it. Thank you.

 

[Yep]

You bring up some worthwhile points. However in my particular instance, those specific ideas miss the mark a little.

For example, I am in agreement that the problem of hell seems intractable. But, I’ve never believed in divine command theory.

If I find the problem of hell ultimately unsolvable, than I still find materialism ultimately unconvincing. I have yet to see a refutation of the materialist answer to its self refuting twin of epistemological nihilism. Medieval Indian materialists realized that if there was no creator we should not trust our perception or rationality. Alvin Planinga proposed a similar problem in the 90s, if I remember correctly.

Those are good points, but not for my specific theology.

 

[humbleseeker]

Hello, Mtheoey. I believe you last posted as Unitarian but you probably got suspended for doing exactly what you’ve done here. If you have a question or comment it must be relevant to to Op’s topic. If not, start your own thread. It also helps if you break down your points you want to address to facilitate dialog and discussion. Once again, stop derailing threads and start your own.

 

[Rob2]

Any advice?

Hello @Yep .

This thread below raises the same matter .

Go to Hell - Stay there forever Apologetics

I have a problem with God’s mercy and love, and it is hell. I cannot see how a good God would create a being who will suffer for all eternity, especially if that person had a morally good life, except for one unforgiven mortal sin. Recent popes try to minimise hell, from JP II, Ben XVI and Francis, also many theologians reject the traditional views of hell. As a Catholic I can only go as far as Hans Urs von Balthasar. Related problems are God’s poor track record, angels fell away, humanity re…

 

[LateranBasilica]

Hi Yep,
I was a Catholic for decades and am now a humanist. It took years of diligent researching!

The following information is what really caught my attention:

Nine million children die every year before they reach the age of five in terror and agony. Most of these families believe in god and are praying for their children to be spared only to learn that their prayers will not be answered. According to Divine Command Theory, this is part of gods plan. These parents will grieve for eternity! Either god can do nothing for these children or doesn’t care to. And most of these children will be going to hell. Through no fault of their own, they were born into the wrong religion and culture where they got the wrong theology and revelation. According to the bible, whatever God commands is good. He commanded the Israelites to kill the Amakalites.
So, our universe is being run by an invisible monster. How do you rationalize the slaughter of innocent children? How do you rationalize murder, mental illness, child molesters, Cancer, tsunamis and hurricanes? All because Serpent Satan hoodwinked Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden?
The world was created billions of years ago by a process called Mtheory

You are posting an agenda on all threads. You are derailing threads . Worst is you are ignorant of what the Catholic church teaches. I can’t imagine a practicing Catholic would come out with or believe such a statement as all those children will be going to hell.

Divine Command theory, really?

 

[Yep]

Thanks for the tip!

I think my difficulty is the eternal nature of hell. It seems disproportionate to any sins committed. There are various response that says that 1. God is so holy, so the crime is infinite, 2. Choices in life are like arrows that shoot into eternity.

After reading the section on hell in fundamentals of dogma, it seems like hell is a continuing conscious punishment by god that is retributive in nature. We don’t walk to hell, god puts us there. At least according to this book.

However, even if we walked to hell ourselves and locked the doors from the inside it’s unclear to me how that makes hell justified. God allowing his finite creatures to eternally injure themselves because it’s there free will makes around as much sense of respecting the free will of a self harming mental patient.

The common response is that this is infantilizing to humans, which I think would be a good response if Catholicism was a different religion. We are the children of god. The finite created by the infinite.

I guess I’m still in a bit of a muddle. Trying to figure it out.