A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi,
What does initial grace give you?
What does initial grace give you?
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V
Verita
Guest
Karl Keating used an excellent metaphor in Catholicism and Fundamentalism. I’ll try to paraphrase it:
Imagine that God is like your parents who give you a wonderful gift: they pay for you to go to college. It’s a completely free gift. You don’t have to pay any of your own money toward your college education. BUT! If you fall into a lifestyle of partying and drinking and if you fail to maintain good grades, your parents will take that gift away.
So in that way, you are earning your college education by your good behavior and your obedience to your parents. But they are still giving you your college education for nothing, they are paying the whole bill. You merely have to live up to their expectations or you loose it.
I think that analogy is great. Of course, it’s expressed far better in the book, but I don’t have it with me.
L
Linkowski
Guest
If only we could sit down together and really go through all of scripture together. This usually turns out to be a waste of time. I also could direct our attention to your cut and paste scripture references as well as the human wisdom and philosophies that others are using apart from God’s Word.
I will ask you to explain this scripture to me…
1John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
And this one…
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
And this one…
John 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
And this one…
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
And the next one…
Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
And others…
1John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
This passage says that all who are in Christ are dead to the law…and as in Romans Chapter 4, it says that we cannot be charged with sin (if you are dead, can you be charged with a crime?)
Ro 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
I am justified - declared righteous on the basis of repentant faith in Christ as my Lord and my Savior - I have been changed…born again. Yes, I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling…being sanctified in the fear of God. I am also bearing fruit by the grace of God and walking in His way (again by His grace and leading).
I think I would like most of all for you to explain the meaning of 1 John 5:4…
1John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Again - this very clearly spells out the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints which the Catholic Church does not subscribe to.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
What is this doctrine and where and when was it instituted and shown to be authentic Christian teaching?
We Catholics certainly believe that all Christians, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, as well as non-Christians, need to perserve in their faith. Why, in the Glorious Mysteries of the Rosary, the 5th glorious mystery is said specifically for the grace of final perserverance.
L
Lillith
Guest
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Amen! The question is what does belief mean? As a Catholic a true saving belief would have fruit… These fruits are obedience to His word, through love…
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. That would be Love of God…Love of man (works)
**Passage 1 Peter 1:17:
Amen! The question is what does belief mean? As a Catholic a true saving belief would have fruit… These fruits are obedience to His word, through love…
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. That would be Love of God…Love of man (works)
**Passage 1 Peter 1:17:
17Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.**
P
Prayer_Warrior
Guest
Here is a little paragraph from this site I found that explains it pretty well:
One who is a non-believer and without sanctifying grace, can do nothing of himself to receive that divine gift. Of his own natural powers alone he can do nothing to prepare his soul for grace. God must take the initiative by means of actual grace which precedes the act of the will on the part of man. “No one can come to Me,” said our Divine Savior, “unless the Father who sent me draws him.” (John 6:44) With the help of that initial grace, however, man can prepare himself to receive sanctifying grace. As Fr Garrigou-Lagrange explains, that initial grace “first enlightens the intellect, then touches the will and causes a sudden desire for the object proposed through the representation of the intellect, and this is the inspiration that ‘opens the heart’ as the heart of Lydia was opened to attend to the things said by St Paul.” (Acts 16:14)
Initial Grace opens our hearts to God. We cannot even have faith without it. That is really amazing but it is right in scripture (Jn 6:44). Many people say “we are saved by faith alone” others say “we are saved by faith working in love”, but I think a more accurate statement is “we are saved by God’s grace”.
In my opinion, 2027 of the CCC flat out opposes the premise of the title in this thread. Man will not be saved without first receiving an UNMERITED gift of Grace from God. Then, yes, man can cooperate with that gift by opening himself up to more and more sanctifying graces. It is this cooperation that the catechism is saying “merits” more graces. In other words, if we cooperate with God’s initial gift of Grace, we get more and more Grace. If we have faith we get Grace, if we are obedient, we get Grace, if we receive the Sacraments, we get Grace, etc. Or, man can slam the door on God’s gift of Grace. If he does, then he will not cooperate with God and he will not receive sanctifying Grace.
Hope that helps.
L
Linkowski
Guest
Why does that matter? What does it mean - that is all that I ask…
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
I say the same for this…
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
Thank you, yes it did help.
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6glargento
Guest
the proper translation in greek is “thoes that are BEING sanctified.”
T
Truthstalker
Guest
mia gar prosfora teteleiwken eiv to dihnekev touv agiazomenous
present active participle. Compare to other translations:
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. NKJV
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. ASV
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. AV
For by one offering he hath consecrated for ever those who are sanctified. Calvin Bible
It was a perfect sacrifice by a perfect person to perfect some very imperfect people. By that single offering, he did everything that needed to be done for everyone who takes part in the purifying process. Message (more of a paraphrase than a translation from the Greek)
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (RSV)
For by a single offering He has for ever completed the blessing for those whom He is setting free from sin. (WEY)
for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified; (YLT)
Considering the Greek verb tense, its usage, the way the participle is being translated, I cannot agree that this verse supports the idea of a one-time total sanctification experience. It seems to relate more to a continuing sanctification, or, to use Catholic terminology, their concept of justification over against the OSAS position.
Let’s look at 1 John 5:4:
4 oti pan to gegennhmenon ek tou yeou nika ton kosmon kai auth estin h nikh h nikhsasa ton kosmon h pistiv hmwn
to gegennhmenon : the one who was born. One would have to determine what nika ton kosmon means (wins the world, roughly) in the context of a gospel of forsaking the world. There is more depth here than a single proof-text being used as a bullet can provide. I don’t have time to examine context or develop Johannine theology to answer this. But the verse is inconclusive to demonstrate OSAS. In fact, the verse says nothing about the duration of the victory. There seems to be a gap in the logic that needs to be filled in to draw that conclusion. Random verses pulled together can be used for a case for anything, such as the following:
“Judas went out and hanged himself.”
“Go thou and do likewise.”
“What you do, do quickly.”
Three verses and thus a theology of suicide. We need a systematic order and understanding of what Scripture says, not a collection of verses that seems to say something. One will give us life, the other death.
L
Linkowski
Guest
Agreed…so what’s the problem.
B
Bishopite
Guest
I’ll try to answer this for you. The word “merit” comes from the Latin word meritum which means “reward” and NOT strict earning. Always remember that ONLY Christ can earn any good in the strict sense since He is God; we merit [reward] things in the analogous sense as we cooperate with God’s grace we merit [reward] more grace. So when the Catechism says we don’t “merit” our initial justification it IS speaking about strict earning which only Christ being divine can do and did for us on the cross. Grace precedes faith and good works. The council of Orange dealt with this truth back in 529 AD in canons 18-20 against pelagianism which taught we could attain salvation by good works. Notice this is in 529 AD and the council is simply teaching what was always taught in orthodox Catholic Christianity.
It reads…"CANON 18. That grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.
CANON 19. That a man can be saved only when God shows mercy. Human nature, even though it remained in that sound state in which it was created, could be no means save itself, without the assistance of the Creator; hence since man cannot safe- guard his salvation without the grace of God, which is a gift, how will he be able to restore what he has lost without the grace of God?
CANON 20. That a man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it. "
Do those Canons read as though Catholicism teaches strict earning or “works salvation?” No, not at all.
Now, after our conversion and baptism we are infused with faith, hope and love and given sanctifying grace. This is our initial justification (for most people i.e. infants)…for justification is a process…we are saved, Rom 8:24, Eph 2:8-10 …are being saved Phil 2:12, 1 Pet 1:9…and will be saved if we endure to the end Mt 10:22, Mt 24:13, Acts 15:11.
Again, whenever you see the word “merit” in Catholic theological writing it usually means “reward” and NOT strict earning; only Jesus can do that for us and only HE can merit our initial
We merit [reward] grace in that when we cooperate with God’s grace through obedience, He rewards us with more grace, see 1 Cor 3:9, 2 Cor 6:1, Mark 16:20. All these verses speak of synergism which is our cooperating with and coworking with God’s grace.
Also Matthew 25:34-40 where Jesus speaks of the righteous who “do” or have “done” works of charity and done them to the glory of Jesus Christ and NOT for their own glory or to obtain anything, being love doesn’t seek it’s own, 1 Cor 13. Example: Mother Theresa.
As opposed to Mt 25:41-46 where Jesus speaks of the damned who have “done” some good however, the good they did was for their own vain glory NOT for the glory of God alone. Example: those who say Lord, Lord but don’t or didn’t “DO” the will of God.
So…Christ gives us the initial grace which gives us faith to do good works see Eph 2:8-10. Our personal works don’t do any good for eternal life. But works under grace Gal 5:6…“faith working through love” are the works that merit (reward) more grace which helps the salvation process and helps us obtain eternal life; all this is because of God’s grace. And before I forget Paul says in 1 Cor 9:22… "To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some."
Does Paul save? Well, in a strict sense NO, but in a cooperative sense YES he is mediating or helping save by cooperating with God’s grace, so Paul part of the salvation of others.
Anyway hope that helps.
M
mom2three
Guest
Great explanation! Thank you!!!Karl Keating used an excellent metaphor in Catholicism and Fundamentalism. I’ll try to paraphrase it:
Imagine that God is like your parents who give you a wonderful gift: they pay for you to go to college. It’s a completely free gift. You don’t have to pay any of your own money toward your college education. BUT! If you fall into a lifestyle of partying and drinking and if you fail to maintain good grades, your parents will take that gift away.
So in that way, you are earning your college education by your good behavior and your obedience to your parents. But they are still giving you your college education for nothing, they are paying the whole bill. You merely have to live up to their expectations or you loose it.
I think that analogy is great. Of course, it’s expressed far better in the book, but I don’t have it with me.
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