Salvation of the invincibly ignorant (Catholic replies, please)

[TNT]

Lazerlike42:

What about a Baptist who has just been conditioned his entire life, especially in his very impressionable childhood, to believe that the Catholic Church is either wrong or evil? In that case, I don’t see how his simple desire for the truth will by necessity lead him there. It could, but it’s not guaranteed.

This is a very pertinate point. I have a dealy loved niece who is Church of Christ. She is profoundly religious and the essence of modesty.
When that hits “home” things have to be rethought. Of course her sect teaches all are condemned who are not loyal Church of Christ members.
All I do is slowly walk her through the Bible, the history of both religions, and above all, give generous example. I leave the remainder to God to convert her.

If the Catholic God does not capture her, I don’t want me to be a cause of it.

 

[bigdawg]

Lazerlike42:

What about a Baptist who has just been conditioned his entire life, especially in his very impressionable childhood, to believe that the Catholic Church is either wrong or evil? In that case, I don’t see how his simple desire for the truth will by necessity lead him there. It could, but it’s not guaranteed.

In the end it’s up to God. I think it’s somewhat fruitless to speculate who is and who isn’t going to Heaven. If you have a friend who is outside the Church you should certainly encourage him to become Catholic since that is the surest path to salvation.

If that person refuses to listen then all we can do is hope that God will have mercy on them.

 

[bigdawg]

Lazerlike42:

Beyond that, we know that the Church recognizes a baptism of desire, so if you have some evangelical that doesn’t believe in baptism and never gets it but they truly, deeply have faith, contrition, and repentance, than they too can be saved.

I guess I would phrase your statement “…than they too might be saved.” The Church clearly teaches that no one outside of the Church will be saved and to the best of my knowledge the only exception to this is invincible igonorance. Since we have no way of knowing who is and who isn’t invincibly ignorant we can only point the way to the Church for those unfortunates who are indeed outside the folds of the Catholic Church.

Also baptism of desire requires “desire”, it would seem that a person who rejects water baptism would not have the desire of the sacrament.

 

[Lazerlike42]

bigdawg:

I guess I would phrase your statement “…than they too might be saved.” The Church clearly teaches that no one outside of the Church will be saved and to the best of my knowledge the only exception to this is invincible igonorance. Since we have no way of knowing who is and who isn’t invincibly ignorant we can only point the way to the Church for those unfortunates who are indeed outside the folds of the Catholic Church.

Also baptism of desire requires “desire”, it would seem that a person who rejects water baptism would not have the desire of the sacrament.

Well the way I understand it, and the way Jimmy Akin does to the best of my recollection, is that if a person somewhere in Africa desires God with all his heart, he may be baptised with his desire and his lack of a water baptism would not count against him because he doesn’t know he needs it.

Similarly, if some evangelical thinks baptism doesn’t do anything and they are truly ignorant through no fault of their own, then their baptism of desire counts too.

However, if some person knew water baptism was required but rejected it or made no effort to get it, then it wouldn’t count. Also, if we really presented a strong case to that evangelical that it is necessay and he chooses to remain ignorant (in other words he hardens his heart to the truth) than this would also probably mean he’d not make it, though we can’t say for sure.

 

[bigdawg]

Lazerlike42:

Well the way I understand it, and the way Jimmy Akin does to the best of my recollection, is that if a person somewhere in Africa desires God with all his heart, he may be baptised with his desire and his lack of a water baptism would not count against him because he doesn’t know he needs it.

Similarly, if some evangelical thinks baptism doesn’t do anything and they are truly ignorant through no fault of their own, then their baptism of desire counts too.

However, if some person knew water baptism was required but rejected it or made no effort to get it, then it wouldn’t count. Also, if we really presented a strong case to that evangelical that it is necessay and he chooses to remain ignorant (in other words he hardens his heart to the truth) than this would also probably mean he’d not make it, though we can’t say for sure.

I agree with you and think that we owe it to those who are outside the Church to point out that the surest way to Heaven is through the Catholic Church. I guess if they stay outside they do so to their own peril.

 

[Matt16_18]

It is known to us and to you that those who are in **invincible ignorance ** of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

Pope Pius IX, Quanto conficiamur moerore, August 10, 1863

 

[Matt16_18]

INVINCIBLE IGNORANCELack of knowledge, either of fact of law, for which a person is not morally responsible. This may be due to the difficulty of the object of the knowledge, or scarcity of evidence, or insufficient time and talent in the person, or any other factor for which he is not culpable.

(Etym. Latin in, not + vincibilis, easily overcome: invincibilis.)

VINCIBLE IGNORANCELack of culpable knowledge for which a person is morally responsible. It is culpable ignorance because it could be cleared up if the person used sufficient diligence.

One is said to be simply (but culpably) ignorant if one fails to make enough effort to learn what should be known; guilt then depends on one’s lack of effort to clear up the ignorance.

That person is crassly ignorant when the lack of knowledge is not directly willed but due to neglect or laziness; as a result the guilt is somewhat lessened, but in grave matters a person would still be gravely responsible.

A person has affected ignorance when one deliberately fosters it in order to not be inhibited in what one wants to do; such ignorance is gravely wrong when it concerns serious matters.

(Eytm. Latin vincibilis, easily overcome; ignorantia, want of knowledge or information.)
Pocket Catholic Dictionary, John A. Hardon, S.J

 

[TNT]

Matt16_18:

It is known to us and to you that those who are in **invincible ignorance ** of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

Pope Pius IX, Quanto conficiamur moerore, August 10, 1863

It’S NOT:
“…suffer eternal punishment”
IT’S “…suffer eternal TORMENT”