Salvation Outside the Catholic Church

[zippy2006]

So then that person would be considered invincibly ignorant in your view and, therefore, not sinning gravely? If I am interpreting your answer correctly, then this is not so rare as suggested by some other replies in this thread. And given my experience with many poorly catechized Catholics who have left the Church (including me for a decade, family members and friends), there must be a host of invincibly ignorant Christians drinking coffee and singing Chris Tomlin songs at non-denominational churches. Thanks again for your replies.

Michael, thanks for sharing those beautiful thoughts. I don’t think any of the ex-Catholics I have encountered in my life “knew in their heart the Hidden Manna of the Eucharist.” They rejected what they believed “in their heart” was false teaching. The attraction to modern worship music, bible only authority and “me and Jesus” sentimentality is what lured them away from the RCC. But, it sounds like they’ll be just fine (unless of course they knew that they rejected the truth). Thanks again.

Great point. My experience with family/friends corroborates that also. And so it goes back to “where does that leave them”?

First, there is no necessary connection between invincible ignorance and being outside of the Church (as opposed to leaving it). Invincible ignorance can apply to any situation, but it is never something we can know or something we should presume. I am somewhat worried that you are presuming invincible ignorance in certain cases. Do be cautious of this.

I agree with what you’ve written, but, with respect, it does not answer my last question. You stated that the Catholic Church does NOT (your emphasis, not mine) deny that protestant churches still have the ministry of salvation. And I asked that if that is true, why does the Catholic Church teach that (except for the rare occurrence of invincible ignorance) salvation must come through Rome’s doors? If my bible-believing non-denominational church down the street still has the ministry of salvation, and I enjoy the music better, the coffee and donuts and the sermon – then why can’t I just stay there?

Because if you stayed there for all eternity, you would find yourself in hell. Whatever lead you to the (Catholic) truth of that non-denominational church will lead you on to the Catholic Church if it is an authentic conversion. If it does not lead you on to Christ’s Church, then you were not being led by truth. Of course circumstantial inadequacies may prevent someone from coming into full communion, but that does not deny anything I just said. Insofar as their conversion is authentic, they are fundamentally oriented to the Catholic Church.

Since you seem to possess effortless clarity, can you provide an answer to the main question – does a poorly catechized Catholic who leaves the Church (say at age 30) to attend a non-denominational church, and who daily seeks God and His will in prayer, regular church attendance, Christian fellowship, bible-study and evangelization, lose his salvation if he never returns to the Catholic Church? Answers on this rather short thread range from “yes” to “maybe” to “nobody can know” to “it’s up to God”. Why such variety in responses if it is so crystal clear?

It seems to me that a large part of your inquiry arises from a misunderstanding about this hypothetical person’s initial state. Consider an example that serves as a paradigm more than a practical possibility (although it is quite possible) :

1. 
   *]A cradle Catholic is raised by parents who do not practice their faith. They have been an atheist for as long as they can remember. They are in their college years living a sinful life.
   *]This person gets interested in Buddhism and is particularly convinced of the truth of “right speech” (using words wisely and not slandering people).
   
   This person was inside the Church and is now willfully outside of it. Have they gone from salvation to reprobation? Of course not. The mere fact that they were “inside the Church” told us nothing about their relation to Christ at all. Being “inside the Church” isn’t magic, for true incorporation into the Church entails a certain way of living and relation to Jesus Christ. It means that we make use of the full means of salvation provided by Christ’s Church.
   
   In one sense the person above is most Catholic at point 2 (apart from the time of their baptismal innocence). They haven’t moved away from the Church, they have moved toward it. Does that make sense? The same dynamic could be applied to your (more complicated) scenario.
   
   So this pristine scenario you present is not a case of “They are no longer Catholic, but it was a good and Godly decision on their part.” Rather it is, “They are more Catholic than they were before, even though they have left the visible confines of the Church.” But we must remember that 1) this scenario is enormously more rare than we’d like to believe, 2) this growing Catholicity in them will bring them back to the Church if it is true, and 3) we must do what we can to help these people, because as far as we know they are jeopardizing their eternal fate.
   
   God bless,
   -zip

 

[mdcpensive1]

There are those who are outside the Church. There are those that are in it and then leave it through an act of their free will. Those that do not know that the Church is the vehicle of salvation either have to reject it, or not know about it. If they do not know about it then they may have been ignorant or did not have it explained to them.

It is a matter of the “motives of credibility” that people use to determine if something is the truth. If they are not presented such that they are true or never explained then people cannot be held responsible for believing in something that was never explained properly. This is not to be held against them and it is only God’s judgment of their heart and their charity that will determine their salvation. We cannot judge their heart and what might or might not been explained to them with credibility.

 

[Amandil]

https://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFFEENY.HTM

The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.

However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.

This is commonly called baptism of desire, and as St. Paul indicated in Romans 2:14-16, is living the natural law infused into every soul, and may be salvific. Only God can judge this, understandably.

Yes I understand baptism by desire.

The problem is that people use this doctrine dishonestly, they use it to avoid conforming their lives to God. They say, “well since I’m following God according to my own (subjective) conscience, and I really believe that I am with God, then I don’t need to go any further than what my conscience tells me.”

This is nothing more than saying, “I believe in God, so I don’t need to bother with all the rest.”

Which means that they reject sacramental Baptism, the Church, the Eucharist, Catholic morality, etc.

This is not invincible ignorance, this is dishonest ignorance. This is avoiding looking at the assignment list because you’re afraid that you might get assigned some unpleasant job. This is refusing to go to the doctor despite that nagging pain in your chest because you’re afraid of what the doctor will tell you.

People use “baptism of desire” to avoid the truth of the Church because they foresee the real difficulties and radical change such a submission will require.

 

[steve_b]

Friends, how does the “invincibly ignorant” doctrine regarding salvation outside the Church apply when a poorly catechized cradle Catholic leaves the Church as an adult to join another Christian church? Understanding that ultimately only God knows the person’s heart, is that person’s salvation in jeopardy for leaving the Church?

Invincible ignorance = ignorance that can’t be overcome with current situations, or personal effort. It’s ignorance that one is not culpable for

However, not all ignorance falls into the invincible category. Especially when one takes little effort to learn what they should know. Then they ARE guilty of their own actions. Here’s how the CCC treats ignorance ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=ignorance&xsubmit=Search&s=SS