Salvation Outside the Church

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Tetiaroa

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Hi,

I’m still not clear on the phrase “outside the Church there is no salvation” because I have non-Catholic friends saying that Pope John Paul II did not promote conversion of Muslims, Buddhists, Protestants, Fundamentalists etc to Catholic.
  1. What actually did Vatican II and Trent say regarding this?
  2. Are Protestants saved? If they are, what about the followers of Gnosticism and other heresies?
  3. How can “outside” become “inside”? If there is a possibility then can there be a possibility that “inside” becomes “outside”?
  4. If an evangelist outside of the Church believes he is saved. Is he really saved?
  5. What should I do as a Catholic if someone a non-Catholic believes he is saved by his faith in Christ?
  6. Are Anti-Catholics saved?
God Bless
 
You should go to Wikipedia and type in extra ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the Church there is no salvation). It actually gives an easy to understand synopsis of this concept. It also gives numerous quotations from Church documents and Church fathers.

After you study the topic for a bit, or even just by reading the Wikipedia entry, you will notice the abrupt change in the Church’s tone during Vatican II. For 20 centuries the Church had really taken the phrase “Outside the Church…” at face value. The documents of Vatican II expand the definition (in a lawyer like fashion).

Compare Unam Sanctam:

Unam Sanctam, Pope Boniface VIII, November 18, 1302
Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

with Vatican II:

Vatican II, Lumen Gentium
This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved. They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion… The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter… But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans… Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.

As you can see, the tone sure changed. It can be a struggle to reconcile the two. I am sure Pope Boniface VIII would have soiled himself if he had read Lumen Gentium.
 
Tetiaroa said:
Hi,

I’m still not clear on the phrase “outside the Church there is no salvation”
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Hi, we have been discussing rather thoroughly this statement and salvation outside of the Church in another forum post: Salvation outside the church

Without meaning to be selfish, I’ll point you to my quotes of the Cathechism and of the encyclical Redemptoris Missio: post 13

Pax Christi tecum
 
Well, considering that most people are one religion or another by accident of birth, it would seem almost ridiculous to condemn the vast bulk of humanity who have never been Catholic. Muslims are not converting. Nor are Jews, Buddhists, Hindus or any other faith. I know some people convert to and from the Catholic Church, for many reasons, but I have read some statistical evidence* which shows that denominational switching is rare, and interfaith switching rarer still.
The Catholic faith is available to all now. I doubt there would be a part of the world where Catholic evangelists have not been. And yet, still, people cling to centuries of family tradition, cultural heritage, national identity or just plain old personal belief. Why would a deeply Islamic person, with a deeply Islamic heritage, convert to any other faith?

*I do not have ready access to those statistics.
 
Thank you,

As for Matthew 20:19-20 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Does this mean that there is no longer a need to BAPTIZE and no longer a need to TEACH to observe ALL that Jesus commanded his apostles?

With this in mind, it may be possible to have a non-Christian canonized saint!!
 
Well, I think the obligation is clear: preach to all nations and baptize where you find some success from the preaching. The most eloquent evangelist won’t have much luck preaching Christianity in Iran, and you can’t baptize the unwilling. I don’t know where that leaves us.
I mention Islam just as a well known example. It’s not like Muslims do not actively seek salvation–it’s a cornerstone of their faith–They just do it differently. If we hold them to be in error, well… they say the same about us.
 
sainthumbert said:
As you can see, the tone sure changed. It can be a struggle to reconcile the two. I am sure Pope Boniface VIII would have soiled himself if he had read Lumen Gentium.
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Probably not, as Pope Boniface in his Papal bull Unam Sanctam was quoting directly from the Summa Theologica by Saint Thomas Aquinas, which Vatican II also referenced, in which Thomas talks about implicit desire and implicit faith, and by extension, “implicit submission.” Here are some essays (#149 & #150) which you will find to be useful:

rtforum.org/lt/index.html

Unfortunately, Father Harrison did not reference the text from the Council of Florence which I posted in the other thread:
The holy synod especially condemns and censures, in the book, the assertion which is scandalous, erroneous in the faith and offensive to the ears of the pious faithful, namely: Christ sins daily and has sinned daily from his very beginning, even though he avers that he does not understand this as of Christ our saviour, head of the church, but as referring to his members, which together with Christ the head form the one Christ, as he asserts. Also, the propositions, and ones similar to them, which the synod declares are contained in the articles condemned at the sacred council of Constance, namely the following. Not all the justified faithful are members of Christ, but only the elect, who finally will reign with Christ for ever. The members of Christ, from whom the church is constituted, are taken according to the ineffable foreknowledge of God; and the church is constituted only from those who are called according to his purpose of election. To be a member of Christ, it is not enough to be united with him in the bond of charity, some other union is needed. Also the following…
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Note that the Council of Florence in Cantate Domino stated, “unless before death they are joined with Her,” so repentance at death is always an option:
2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.
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Of course, what the Triune God can do for those who commit suicide, He can also do for Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.
 
Tetiaroa said:
Does this mean that there is no longer a need to BAPTIZE and no longer a need to TEACH to observe ALL that Jesus commanded his apostles? With this in mind, it may be possible to have a non-Christian canonized saint!!
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The Doctor of the Church St. Thomas Aquinas stated that “God is not tied to the Sacraments”, which means that salvation is truly universal. Nevertheless, the statement “there is no longer a need to baptize and teach” contradicts an explicit command by the Lord:
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit
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Nobody has authority to change the explicit will of Christ in this matter, especially since we know that in order to enter the kingdom one must be born of water and spirit.

The Church simply believes - in consideration of God’s infinite justice and infinite mercy - that in some mysterious way salvation is open to all through the Church.

And yes, everyone who is admitted to the divine presence of God in heaven is a saint, and we know at least a few from the Old Testament that were “non-christian”, so to speak 🙂
 
Jehannette said:
Probably not, as Pope Boniface in his Papal bull Unam Sanctam was quoting directly from the Summa Theologica by Saint Thomas Aquinas, which Vatican II also referenced, in which Thomas talks about implicit desire and implicit faith, and by extension, “implicit submission.” Here are some essays (#149 & #150) which you will find to be useful:
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Thank you Jehannette for those essays. I did find them useful.
 
If someone hears Cholicism preached, believes you have to become Catholc, but does not become one, then they do not have salvation. Even if they hear any form of Chirstianty preached, but do not become a Christian (or Catholic) it is up to God to judge them and letting/not letting them into Heaven. 🙂
 
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