Salvation outside the Church

[NorthTexan88]

I was talkin with a baptist friend last night and we were talking about salvation outside the Church. So, where in the bible does it say that non Christians can be saved?

 

[Genesis315]

Just a subtle point, but I don’t think the Catholic Church teaches that non-Christians (ie those without faith in Jesus) can be saved. See here:

CCC 161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"43

What we do acknowledge is that “God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him” (Vatican II, Ad Gentes 7).

This is a logical inference from 1 Tim. 2:4 which says God desires all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Since God desires all to be saved, he must offer all the means of salvation. However, since it is practically impossible to reach all with the Gospel message in the ordinary ways (due to both physical and moral/cultural/psychological/etc. barriers), God must have the power to do it in other ways we may not see.

Here’s a good allocution on this topic from Pope Bl. John Paul II with lots of Scripture citations:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html

Just again though, as Bl. John Paul II warns in the allocution above:
Pope Bl. John Paul II:

What I have said above, however, does not justify the relativistic position of those who maintain that a way of salvation can be found in any religion, even independently of faith in Christ the Redeemer, and that interreligious dialogue must be based on this ambiguous idea.

 

[RocketRM]

Just a subtle point, but I don’t think the Catholic Church teaches that non-Christians (ie those without faith in Jesus) can be saved. :

The Church indeed states that it is possible for those non-Christians to find salvation. It is the theory of innocent (or invincible) ignorance:

CCC s.1260:
“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Peace of Christ with you all!

 

[chimo]

I was talkin with a baptist friend last night and we were talking about salvation outside the Church. So, where in the bible does it say that non Christians can be saved?

Paul says in one of his letters that the believer sanctifies the unbeliever. He was using as an example a believer wife can sanctify the unbelieving husband. We can use this same principal and say those in the Church can sanctify those outside the Church. In truth salvation is solely found in and through the Church but it does not mean one has to be a member of the Church. St. Gertrude the Great had a vision of Jesus where he stated that everyone on the planet and including all the souls departed and those still in a Purgatory state all receive Grace from God when a person receives him in Holy Communion. Holy Communon is powerful if we only knew of its benefits not only for our own salvation but its incredible graces it can confer on everyone else on the planet. Indeed the believer can sanctify the unbeliever. Now remember Paul is talking about those who have not heard about Jesus Christ. He is not referring to those who are in very serious sin. Salvation for those who commit mortal sins must be more than us going to Holy Communion for them. It takes a lot of penance and praying to enable the Grace of God to work on a soul who is in the state of mortal sin. In this scene we who are faithful can “adopt” such sinners to pray and offer our penance for them. Yet even here it is the Church which becomes the beacon of salvation for such souls.

 

[SaintPatrick333]

The Church indeed states that it is possible for those non-Christians to find salvation. It is the theory of innocent (or invincible) ignorance:

CCC s.1260:
“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Peace of Christ with you all!

Most non Catholic Christians can’t claim this though. The majority are “not” ignorant of His Church. They know what we Catholics believe yet they “choose” not to believe it, and instead attack us for it. They are actively denying Jesus Christ by denying His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic (literal and physical) Church, and in doing so, are condemning themselves.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I have a protestant friend that stated the only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ. So I asked what of the bushman in Africa who has never heard of Christ. Is he held to the same standard as say someone who has heard and then rejected? How can you reject something you know nothing about? So I would say that I have no clue is the bushman will be in Heaven nor am I sure I will be, but I do know that God will judge us both fairly and just.

 

[RocketRM]

Most non Catholic Christians can’t claim this though. The majority are “not” ignorant of His Church. They know what we Catholics believe yet they “choose” not to believe it, and instead attack us for it. They are actively denying Jesus Christ by denying His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic (literal and physical) Church, and in doing so, are condemning themselves.

Well I’ll absolutely agree with you there SaintPatrick - especially in our modern mass media culture.

But I think one could argue that even a Muslim living in Syria or Iran may know of Christianity but still be ignorant of our Faith. (Frankly there are a TON of protestants who know of our church and are incredibly ignorant of our beliefs LOL)

In the end, I hate judging game of trying to figure out which person is saved or damned. Only God knows. I believe the Catholic church has expressed the most charitable and compassionate understanding of salvation.

God Bless!

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Most non Catholic Christians can’t claim this though. The majority are “not” ignorant of His Church. They know what we Catholics believe yet they “choose” not to believe it, and instead attack us for it. They are actively denying Jesus Christ by denying His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic (literal and physical) Church, and in doing so, are condemning themselves.

There is a difference between denying Jesus Christ, and denying one’s conception of Jesus, even saying that you’re denying Jesus, when you don’t know who Jesus is. One can in fact say “Lord, Lord” and be damned because despite thinking we were following Christ we were not, and yet on the other hand, it is just as possible to say “When did we see you hungry and feed you?” and be saved, because we were following Christ without knowing what we were doing.

It is possible to be aware that there was this person called Jesus who some think was God, to not believe this, but not to actually be denying Jesus at all. It depends on what you think you know vs what you actually know and what exactly you are denying.

A person who honestly thinks that Christianity is no more than a belief in some sort of sky fairy, some sort of “noisy mythological creature,” a kind of big bearded man in the sky who throws thunderbolts at people he doesn’t like, and denies this belief is not in fact denying Christianity.

A person who recognizes that Love is the most important thing and does his best to follow it closely, and to obey the “law written on his heart,” and generally does his best to seek Truth and Goodness, but does not have any idea that the Truth is Jesus, and that the perfect Love is God, is in fact seeking after God even though he does not know it.

How this applies to a particular individual is of course impossible to judge. Good thing that’s not our job.

 

[NorthTexan88]

She does not believe that non-chirstians can be saved. she quoted the verse where Jesus says “I am the way, the truth, and the life” (cant rememeber the rest?). However when I looked up quotes from ECF’s as well as papal declerations on salvation outside of the Church, they all seem pretty uniformly clear that there is no salvation outside the Church, I could not find any quotes regarding people being saved outside the Church (maybe someone could help me!).

*Not to start anything so please dont, just a thought but could what the catechism says and what the statements from V2 just be pastoral? It doesnt seem to fit with the dogma’s that I have read?

In the end I eventually just told her that that is why the great commision is so important and we are suppose to spread Christ through the world.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

She does not believe that non-chirstians can be saved. she quoted the verse where Jesus says “I am the way, the truth, and the life” (cant rememeber the rest?). However when I looked up quotes from ECF’s as well as papal declerations on salvation outside of the Church, they all seem pretty uniformly clear that there is no salvation outside the Church, I could not find any quotes regarding people being saved outside the Church (maybe someone could help me!).

*Not to start anything so please dont, just a thought but could what the catechism says and what the statements from V2 just be pastoral? It doesnt seem to fit with the dogma’s that I have read?

In the end I eventually just told her that that is why the great commision is so important and we are suppose to spread Christ through the world.

The general understanding is that there is no salvation outside the Church, but that the boundaries of the Church may be larger than is apparent (though it would be incorrect to say that they necessarily encompass everyone, or to use this as an excuse to avoid evangelization since the whole area is a bit fuzzy). See:

catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church

 

[NorthTexan88]

The general understanding is that there is no salvation outside the Church, but that the boundaries of the Church may be larger than is apparent (though it would be incorrect to say that they necessarily encompass everyone, or to use this as an excuse to avoid evangelization since the whole area is a bit fuzzy). See:

catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church

Thanks for the help!

The problem I have been running into constantly, albeit it does confuse me a little, whenever I say that one outside the Church can be saved, but they are saved by invincible ignorance, the person automatically shuts down and wants to use that as an excuse. Would it be wrong if I used what was defined at the Council of Trent since it is legitimate dogma, and just say that if anyone is saved outside of the Church it is known only to God?
I really would like if someone could provide me dogmatic quotes or Bible verses that suggest you dont have to believe Christ or be a Christian to be saved. It would be easier to help give people information that ask, and it ALWAYS comes up when I start talking to people about being Catholic.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Thanks for the help!

The problem I have been running into constantly, albeit it does confuse me a little, whenever I say that one outside the Church can be saved, but they are saved by invincible ignorance, the person automatically shuts down and wants to use that as an excuse. Would it be wrong if I used what was defined at the Council of Trent since it is legitimate dogma, and just say that if anyone is saved outside of the Church it is known only to God?
I really would like if someone could provide me dogmatic quotes or Bible verses that suggest you dont have to believe Christ or be a Christian to be saved. It would be easier to help give people information that ask, and it ALWAYS comes up when I start talking to people about being Catholic.

I think that would be an accurate statement. When I am in those conversations myself, I always try to stress that we do not claim that there is any way whatsoever to salvation other than Christ, and then say that however since salvation is a work of God with which we cooperate or not and not something we do ourself, it is possible that God save someone without that person understanding all the gory details of how it is happening (including, possibly, the name of the Person doing it). And of course it’s all invisible to us.

I think Lumen Gentium may be the document you’re looking for. You can find it here, among other places. It’s rather long, but I think the pertinent area is section 14 (which I found by hitting ctrl-f and typing “14.”).

An (old-ish, ~150 yrs ago) papal quote that may be helpful:

"For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains ‘we shall see God as He is’ (1 John 3.2), we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is “one God, one faith, one baptism” (Eph. 4.5); it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.
“But, just as the way of charity demands, let us pour forth continual prayers that all nations everywhere may be converted to Christ; and let us be devoted to the common salvation of men in proportion to our strength, ‘for the hand of the Lord is not shortened’ (Isa. 9.1) and the gifts of heavenly grace will not be wanting to those who sincerely wish and ask to be refreshed by this light.”

• Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadem, emphasis added

I do not know the authority level of that quote, but it seems to be representative of the general opinion held in such quotes. You can find more similar here.

Bible passages that I use to illustrate the possibility include (and which illustrations have no authority whatsoever (unless they have been so explained somewhere with authority that I am not aware of), this is just how I read them):

• Sheep and Goats - Some of the sheep see Jesus at judgement and are completely unaware that they have been serving Him during life. “When did we see you hungry, and feed you.” However they were serving Jesus, not some non-existent god. They did in fact feed and clothe Christ, and it is by this that it is referenced. So while it is possible that they were ignorant of exactly what they were doing, they were still serving God. In fairness, it could be argued that all the people present at judgement in that parable were already at least technical followers of Christ, people who believed at least intellectually in the faith, but I do not see this myself.
• The Good Samaritan. It is the Samaritan, the believer in the incorrect faith, that is the “hero”. It is of course not mentioned explicitly that the Samaritan is saved, but the idea tends to be that what he did leads in that direction. Note that that parable is not entirely about helping outcasts either - if that’s all it were, it would make more sense for the mugged person to be Samaritan and for a Jew to help him, but it’s the other way around.
• I also tend to point out that we are told in no uncertain terms that we are not to judge anyone’s soul. It appears to me then that any interpretation that gives us certainty, with no wiggle room whatsoever depending on interior disposition that is not known to us, of the state of someone’s soul may be over simplified. If we cannot know for certain that the mass murderer is damned (even if we can know that he will be if his mind is healthy and normal and he is unrepentant, neither of which we can actually know), I do not think we can know for certain that the kind old lady from India who’s only experience of Christians and Christianity was to have them shout “you’re going to hell” at her when she visited her daughter in the States is damned.

It’s possible that she is of course. And certainly the only way that we know will lead to salvation is to be baptized and then persist in a state of grace (with confession after each stumble), and so we should evangelize with vigor. But I think it’s going too far to say that we know that those who aren’t reached are damned.

 

[Arthropod]

Thanks for the help!

The problem I have been running into constantly, albeit it does confuse me a little, whenever I say that one outside the Church can be saved, but they are saved by invincible ignorance, the person automatically shuts down and wants to use that as an excuse. Would it be wrong if I used what was defined at the Council of Trent since it is legitimate dogma, and just say that if anyone is saved outside of the Church it is known only to God?
I really would like if someone could provide me dogmatic quotes or Bible verses that suggest you dont have to believe Christ or be a Christian to be saved. It would be easier to help give people information that ask, and it ALWAYS comes up when I start talking to people about being Catholic.

I very much doubt you will find anything dogmatically stating that you don’t need to believe in Christ to be saved.

Here though, are two infallible declarations dogmatically stating that not only do you have to believe in Christ, you have to be Roman catholic on top of that:

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff. - Boniface VIII

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his Angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the Sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. - Eugene IV / Council of Florence

 

[RocketRM]

Iron - that was really a great analysis of the situation. Thank you for providing it. My favourite part was the following:

…] I also tend to point out that we are told in no uncertain terms that we are not to judge anyone’s soul. It appears to me then that any interpretation that gives us certainty, with no wiggle room whatsoever depending on interior disposition that is not known to us, of the state of someone’s soul may be over simplified. If we cannot know for certain that the mass murderer is damned (even if we can know that he will be if his mind is healthy and normal and he is unrepentant, neither of which we can actually know), I do not think we can know for certain that the kind old lady from India who’s only experience of Christians and Christianity was to have them shout “you’re going to hell” at her when she visited her daughter in the States is damned…

That’s really the crux of the whole argument. We just don’t know what’s inside men’s heart and we certainly do not know the full will of God.

I grew up always thinking that if you were not a practicing RC you were going to burn. Well in reality I was focusing on all the negative sides of my faith and in doing so allowed hate into my heart.

If other Christian groups want to attack us for taking up a truly *charitable *and *humble *stance that we simply do not know who will be saved in the end, then I am absolutely fine with that.

I will continue to practice my faith as the Church teaches it - I know it can only help me on my journey with God. But if, when I die and I meet my Heavenly Father, I find out that others who did not practice my beliefs also are with me in heaven then I will rejoice.

So the next time I am asked “who do you believe will be saved” I will simply respond “only God knows but I will continue to pray for all to come to Christ”

God Bless

 

[steve_b]

Thanks for the help!

The problem I have been running into constantly, albeit it does confuse me a little, whenever I say that one outside the Church can be saved, but they are saved by invincible ignorance, the person automatically shuts down and wants to use that as an excuse.

Re: Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

**846 **How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

**847 **This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

**848 **“Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

*as an aside, May ≠ Will. *iow, lest indifferentism raises its ugly head, may = a possibility, it does not mean ‘probability’ or even a ‘good possibility’, but only a possibility - perhaps even only a remote one

The CCC takes a pastoral view and explains the text without watering down scripture and tradition or previous popes and councils. Bottomline, God doesn’t hold one culpable for ignorance. And that is the Church’s constant teaching. But once a person knows, then they are culpable.

“outside” is clarified. Culpability of being outside, requires knowledge on the part of the individual. Outside, is not a wooden literal meaning. That was an idea condemned by the Church. If one is not truly ignorant of this subject,*** then*** there is fault.

As St Paul said, dissenters who bring factions and divisions in the Church, are acting out on their sinful nature and will not inherit the kingdom of God. [Gal 5:19…] Another way perhaps of saying, outside the Church there is no salvation

Catholic unity is necessary and it is an important act of charity of the heart. While someone might be baptized, and entitled to be called Christian as a result, if they don’t maintain Catholic unity they violate charity. And what is the consequence?

**815 **What are these bonds of unity? Above all, charity “binds everything together in perfect harmony.” But the unity of the pilgrim Church is also assured by visible bonds of communion:

• profession of one faith received from the Apostles;
  -common celebration of divine worship, especially of the sacraments;
• apostolic succession through the sacrament of Holy Orders, maintaining the fraternal concord of God’s family.
  **836 **“All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”
  **837 **“Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved.He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’”

 

[Church_Militant]

Found this up in the Ask an Apologist forum.

• Extra ecclesiam nulla salus
• ** Salvation Outside of the Church**
• ** What is invincible ignorance?**
• ** How can the Church accept salvation for Protestants?**
• Should Catholics try to evangelize Protestants?

 

[1AugustSon7]

Just a subtle point, but I don’t think the Catholic Church teaches that non-Christians (ie those without faith in Jesus) can be saved. See here:

CCC 161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"43

What we do acknowledge is that “God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him” (Vatican II, Ad Gentes 7).

This is a logical inference from 1 Tim. 2:4 which says God desires all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Since God desires all to be saved, he must offer all the means of salvation. However, since it is practically impossible to reach all with the Gospel message in the ordinary ways (due to both physical and moral/cultural/psychological/etc. barriers), God must have the power to do it in other ways we may not see.

Here’s a good allocution on this topic from Pope Bl. John Paul II with lots of Scripture citations:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html

Just again though, as Bl. John Paul II warns in the allocution above:

Good post.

 

[chypmonk]

Thanks for the help!

The problem I have been running into constantly, albeit it does confuse me a little, whenever I say that one outside the Church can be saved, but they are saved by invincible ignorance, the person automatically shuts down and wants to use that as an excuse. Would it be wrong if I used what was defined at the Council of Trent since it is legitimate dogma, and just say that if anyone is saved outside of the Church it is known only to God?
I really would like if someone could provide me dogmatic quotes or Bible verses that suggest you dont have to believe Christ or be a Christian to be saved. It would be easier to help give people information that ask, and it ALWAYS comes up when I start talking to people about being Catholic.

Actually you have walked into the controversy of the past century. The problem is that people don’t see that there are two theories of Baptism of Desire:

1. implicit
2. explicit
   The implicit one is the one that gives you problems. The explicit one would be no problem for a protestant. Here is a video that explains it pretty well:
   youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nL3VeAUpLP0

 

[Catholic_Jay]

“14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”

From The Second Vatican Council
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

Also, The Catechism of the Catholic Church says it is possible:

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

They’d be partially part of the body of Christ.