Salvation.... secured or earned?

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liber8ed217

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What is it people? Can you be assured of your salvation or do you have to live a worthy life to earn it… SCRIPTURES to back up your posts
 
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liber8ed217:
What is it people? Can you be assured of your salvation or do you have to live a worthy life to earn it… SCRIPTURES to back up your posts
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Take the talons off would you?What kind of request is that, use some manners:rolleyes: Do you want to find out what we believe or do you want to needle?God Bless
 
are you asking if salvation is a one time act/declaration of faith or if it is a life journey? Nobody can 100% sure of their own salvation.

all through the Gospels Jesus teaches that salvation is not an easy thing to attain…

Matt 19:16 This guy comes and asks Jesus what he must do for eternal life, Jesus tells him to keep the Commandments, and the man said he did, then Jesus told him to sell his stuff and give to the poor…but the man became sad at that and went away.

Matt26:35-46 here is some more stuff
 
i’ve always wondered what punctiliar salvation folks (people who believe that once you accept Jesus, you’re saved from then on) make of the two verses from the NT that seem to blow that idea out of the water:

‘he who endures to the end will be saved’

and

‘work out your salvation with fear and trembling’.

obviously, since i accept these verses (and bring them up), i must believe that we are BEING saved throughout our lives, and will BE saved when we die and are finally purified of our sinfulness.

what do YOU make of these verses, liber8ed?
 
As a practical matter, discussions about salvation are highly overrated.

What difference does it make? He who loves Jesus follows His commands. What more can you do? Let faith take it from there. Only the faithless worry and fret about such things; tomorrow has enough worries of its own.

Alan

References:
John 14:21: Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him."

Matt 6:34: Do not worry about tomorrow; tomorrow will take care of itself. Sufficient for a day is its own evil.
 
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AlanFromWichita:
As a practical matter, discussions about salvation are highly overrated.
What difference does it make? He who loves Jesus follows His commands. What more can you do? Let faith take it from there. Only the faithless worry and fret about such things; tomorrow has enough worries of its own.
Alan
References:
John 14:21: Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him."
Matt 6:34: Do not worry about tomorrow; tomorrow will take care of itself. Sufficient for a day is its own evil.
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Okay, I do believe you are right to a point, but look at what God says: He knows everything about us and who is going to trust in Jesus and who isn’t. Pslam 139 is the best place to start and then we can go to the New Testament and see how Jesus elaborated on that as well as the apostle James.
Matthew 5 - 7; 10; Luke 12:1-12; James 1:2-12 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith works patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that you may be perfect and entire, lacking in nothing. If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all men liberally, and reproaches not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavers is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive anything of the Lord. A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways. Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted: But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away. For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withers the grass, and its flower falls, and the beauty of the appearance of it perishes: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways. Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him.

Here is the blessing; for those of us who know we are poor spiritually, because we are still in our frail bodies, we have hope as long as we believe in Jesus and what He did on the cross. It is when we lose faith in the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, that we have no hope. To me, Jesus is our blessed hope and without Him we are nothing. He made us, died for us, rose from the dead for us and lives to make intercession for us. With that said, I also believe He will come back for us. Amen?
 
Okay Heartbroke,
So you’re tellin’ me that I can go out and live any old way that I want and just show up for church at your church every Sunday and Wednesday and my Salvation is secured because I said a prayer and accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and savior…right?

St. Paul said that he pushed on lest having preached to others he himself should be rejected (!st Cor 9:27). hmmm…St. Paul was not “secure” in his salvation, now was he?

Look at Matthew 24:13! “But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.” persevere in doing what? Clearly we are to persevere in doing something. Something like continuing to produce fruit worthy of repentence perhaps?

Let’s have a look at one of my favorite passages from the NT…
Mathew 25:31-46. It’s all about the last judgement isn’t it? Don’t bother to look it up, I have it right here for us all to see.

31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40** And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.**

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

(I color coded it because you seem to like that sort of thing 😉 )
Well, you wanted scripture so I brought it to you. (Glad I could help! 😃 )

Now…All of these people, and from the sound of it it will be all of us; will be judged on what basis? It’s okay…you can say it…
they were clearly judged on the basis of whether or not they DID certain things during their lives. Things that Jesus says are important enough to determine our eternal destiny.

Now; you can sit there and say anything you want about us Catholics “earning our salvation” (A silly statement that proves that you are ignorant of what we really do believe, and have never really read anything that comes from the Catholic Church. Else you wouldn’t come in here and launch this attack of yours. What happened? Your preacher get up and tell you that this is what we believe? Boy…No infallibilty there- because that’s DEAD WRONG!)
but you would be far better served by going here: catholic.com/library/Reward_and_Merit.asp and go see what we really DO believe. I don’t really think you’ve got the courage to print out that tract and/or any of the others about salvation and read and study them for yourself. I think you are probably too scared that it might make good Biblical sense and that you MIGHT just get drawn (by the Holy Spirit, no less!) into the Catholic Church which according to 1st Timothy 3:15 is “the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth”.

Dude, go tell whoever told you all this stuff that they are full of baloney because Catholics DO NOT earn our way into heaven, but we sure as life eternal DO walk it out moment by moment with the Lord Jesus Christ. Then, if you’ve got the courage, come back here and read all the articles and stuff on this homepage and ask us some GOOD questions. We’ve got nothing to hide and there’s no excuse for you to be misled about Catholicism like this.

I DARE you to really get into what we teach.

Pax Vobiscum.
 
Church Militant:
Okay Heartbroke,
So you’re tellin’ me that I can go out and live any old way that I want and just show up for church at your church every Sunday and Wednesday and my Salvation is secured because I said a prayer and accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and savior…right?
(!st Cor 9:27). hmmm…St. Paul was not “secure” in his salvation, now was he?
Pax Vobiscum.
No one has said that. I don’t believe we can live however we want. That is not what the Scriptures teach either. You obviously only believe what you are told.
1 Corinthians 9:24-10:14 Know you not that they who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? So run, that you may obtain. And every man that strives for self control is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not with uncertainty; so fight I, not as one that beats the air: But I roughly treat my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified. Moreover, brethren, I want not that you should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual food; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be you idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us test Christ, as some of them also tested him, and were destroyed by serpents. Neither murmur you, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. Therefore let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it. Therefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

I do find it very hard to understand why you would believe that those who really believe the Word of God are liars??? It never ceases to amaze me, expecially when it is His Word that has caused me to be the most moral person in my family and work environment. ( I work with a couple of Roman Catholics in my job, and one is so critical of everything and everyone, and the other is so dishonest it would make you puke)
One customer phoned in and complained about me, but when they lied (a catholic) my bossed dismissed the whole thing, because they know I do not lie and live my faith)James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
I think first of all you need to learn to take Scripture in context. You cannot take a portion of a verse or a section and leave the others hanging; take the whole passage, it might be only a few verses but it could be a couple of chapters to get the whole context of the teaching. Please pay attention to that before you start quoting God’s Word. That is probably the biggest reason Peter said that some of Paul’s teachings were hard to understand.
Did you ever notice how many people were amazed at Jesus teaching? He didn’t rely on prior rabbi’s teachings or commentaries, He said it like it was meant to be. Amen!
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liber8ed217:
What is it people? Can you be assured of your salvation or do you have to live a worthy life to earn it… SCRIPTURES to back up your posts
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Hello Liber8,

Why do you ask for scriptures to back up my beliefs? Where does God say that my beliefs have to be backed up by scripture?

Joe
 
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Heartbroke:
(I work with a couple of Roman Catholics in my job, and one is so critical of everything and everyone, and the other is so dishonest it would make you puke)
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Heartbroke,

It is not the Catholic Church’s fault that these Roman Catholics are critical and dishonest. The CC teaches everyone, repeat everyone (even non-catholics) that they should not be critical and dishonest. So when a Catholic is critical and dishonest, he is doing so under his own authority which is in rebellion to the authority of the Church. Neither Jesus, nor St. Peter, nor any of his successor popes have taught that it is ok to be critical of others and dishonest.

When someone does this he objectively sins as he is being disobedient and in rebellion to the Church founded by Christ and which calls everyone to holiness in doing God’s will. When I am dishonest it is my fault, not the Pope’s or Church’s fault. When I do good it is because the Church teaches me that I should do good, therefore credit redounds to the Church.

If everyone would obey the Pope then we would have paradise on earth as his teachings are guided by the Holy Spirit and are true. There would be no criticism of others, no dishonesty, no lying, stealing, murder, adultery, artificial birth control, abortion, anger, blashpemy etc. All of the prisons would close as there would be no lawbreakers (assuming all the laws are just) and we could throw away all of our keys.

Joe
 
JOE OBERR:
Heartbroke,

It is not the Catholic Church’s fault that these Roman Catholics are critical and dishonest. The CC teaches everyone, repeat everyone (even non-catholics) that they should not be critical and dishonest. So when a Catholic is critical and dishonest, he is doing so under his own authority which is in rebellion to the authority of the Church. Neither Jesus, nor St. Peter, nor any of his successor popes have taught that it is ok to be critical of others and dishonest.

When someone does this he objectively sins as he is being disobedient and in rebellion to the Church founded by Christ and which calls everyone to holiness in doing God’s will. When I am dishonest it is my fault, not the Pope’s or Church’s fault. When I do good it is because the Church teaches me that I should do good, therefore credit redounds to the Church.

If everyone would obey the Pope then we would have paradise on earth as his teachings are guided by the Holy Spirit and are true. There would be no criticism of others, no dishonesty, no lying, stealing, murder, adultery, artificial birth control, abortion, anger, blashpemy etc. All of the prisons would close as there would be no lawbreakers (assuming all the laws are just) and we could throw away all of our keys.

Joe
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AMEN!!!

Heartbroke–Hubris is not a Christ-like trait. It is through Christ that Christians choose to do the right, and moral thing, not because you go to a “christian” church, instead of Christ’s Catholic Church.
 
I do find it very hard to understand why you would believe that those who really believe the Word of God are liars??? It never ceases to amaze me, expecially when it is His Word that has caused me to be the most moral person in my family and work environment. ( I work with a couple of Roman Catholics in my job, and one is so critical of everything and everyone, and the other is so dishonest it would make you puke)
One customer phoned in and complained about me, but when they lied (a catholic) my bossed dismissed the whole thing, because they know I do not lie and live my faith)James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
I think first of all you need to learn to take Scripture in context. You cannot take a portion of a verse or a section and leave the others hanging; take the whole passage, it might be only a few verses but it could be a couple of chapters to get the whole context of the teaching. Please pay attention to that before you start quoting God’s Word. That is probably the biggest reason Peter said that some of Paul’s teachings were hard to understand.
Did you ever notice how many people were amazed at Jesus teaching? He didn’t rely on prior rabbi’s teachings or commentaries, He said it like it was meant to be. Amen!
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Final answers:
No one called you a liar. That would be uncharitable and unnecessary, since you are in fact just mistaken.

So humble…and all unprovable from your posts. However, if you are trying to allege that you are more moral than some of the folks around you…doesn’t that sort of sound like the Pharisee and the Publican in the temple? I know that my own faith has made a difference in my life as well and I attribute it to my return to the truths of Catholicism.

Physician heal thyself…

I don’t suppose the attacks will ever end because they will simply not listen…sigh

Agnus Dei, qui tollis pecatta mundi, miserere nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis pecatta mundi, miserere nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis pecatta mundi, dona nobis pacem.
 
It really is quite simple.

Catholic: Salvation is a gift offered by God to all, but not forced upon anyone. God intends us to be santicifed with the end result being that in heaven, we will be perfected and able to live in the presence of God like He intended all along (before the sin of Adam and Eve). But because God has granted us this free will, sanctification requires CONTINUED acceptance of Grace in our lives and in our ACTIONS, not just a one-time conversion experience. Acceptance of Grace requires submission, obedience, charity and sacrifice. These actions do not PRODUCE or EARN the Grace, they are merely the means God has chosen for us to accept His grace.

Luther: All men are heaps of dung. Salvation comes through faith alone. Through faith, the saved are like heaps of dung covered with pure and perfect snow. The man is unchanged, he is only COVERED by God’s grace. Therefore, his actions are irrelevent.

Trouble is that Luther’s approach CANNOT be supported by Jesus’ teaching on the Sheep and Goats, or Paul’s ‘fear and trembling’ passage or the others mentioned above. The CATHOLIC teaching is consistant with ALL Bible passages on salvation. Luther’s is NOT.

Notice that NEITHER precept contends that salvation is earned.

If it makes you feel better, I think everybody here will freely concede that an awful lot of catholics on the street are not well educated on the distinction outlined above.
 
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manualman:
It really is quite simple.

Catholic: Salvation is a gift offered by God to all, but not forced upon anyone. God intends us to be santicifed with the end result being that in heaven, we will be perfected and able to live in the presence of God like He intended all along (before the sin of Adam and Eve). But because God has granted us this free will, sanctification requires CONTINUED acceptance of Grace in our lives and in our ACTIONS, not just a one-time conversion experience. Acceptance of Grace requires submission, obedience, charity and sacrifice. These actions do not PRODUCE or EARN the Grace, they are merely the means God has chosen for us to accept His grace.

Luther: All men are heaps of dung. Salvation comes through faith alone. Through faith, the saved are like heaps of dung covered with pure and perfect snow. The man is unchanged, he is only COVERED by God’s grace. Therefore, his actions are irrelevent.

Trouble is that Luther’s approach CANNOT be supported by Jesus’ teaching on the Sheep and Goats, or Paul’s ‘fear and trembling’ passage or the others mentioned above. The CATHOLIC teaching is consistant with ALL Bible passages on salvation. Luther’s is NOT.

Notice that NEITHER precept contends that salvation is earned.

If it makes you feel better, I think everybody here will freely concede that an awful lot of catholics on the street are not well educated on the distinction outlined above.
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I agree - myself included:D . There are some good resources at catholic.com (go figure!) including this link to an article by James Akin in This Rock. It deals with the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification in 1999, and It helped me a lot.

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911fea1.asp

BTW…it ends with the following regarding the Luther vs. Catholic stance:
Consequences for Apologetics
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The Joint Declaration has great ecumenical significance, but it is a watershed as well in the history of Catholic-Protestant apologetics.
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It will be unnecessary now for Catholic apologists to maintain a confrontational stance on this topic when the Church is taking a different tack. This is especially true concerning the seven topics from section 4 of the Joint Declaration, including the touchy subject of the “faith alone” formula. Catholics who insist on being confrontational on these issues will increasingly find themselves facing the rejoinder, “How can you say that when your own Church says something different?”
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Consequently, it is better for the apologist to be conciliatory on justification. This will have a number of positive effects. It will keep our language in conformity with the language of the Church. It will force us to learn the Church’s theology of justification in greater depth, rather than simply repeating stock formulas. And, most importantly, it will make our message more appealing to Protestants who might be interested in converting.
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God Bless,

Robert.
 
St. Thomas Aquinas teaches us in the most beautiful way that our very being depends on God.

Ponder that for a few minutes. Your very being, from moment to moment, is utterly dependent on God.

How could anyone outside the Catholic Church accuse us of daring to believe that we merit even our next breath on our own power?

One could turn the tables - if one were uncharitable - and charge that it is protestants who belittle salvation by reducing it to the completely unbiblical and superficial ritual of the altar call.

My patience with rank and file protestants is wearing thin.
 
rlg,

Rebuke accepted. In general. However, in a situation where an attack is clearly made, it may be useful (perhaps even pastoral) to surprise the attacker with a rather more vigorous defense than he expected.

Just as a tragic number of catholics fail to understand the difference between ‘merit’ and '‘earn’ in catholic theology of salvation, there are a fair number of evangelicals who have not realized that what they truly believe inside is harmful to their own sanctification. I have had quite an immersion in the evangelical culture at times in my life and I can tell you first-hand that the “covered sin” view of salvation is alive and well in American Evangelicals, even if their senior theologans have grown beyond it. The bluntness of my example, has repeatedly earned me grudging respect from earnest evangelicals. I judged a low-post # author’s thread consisting of a one sentence attack to be worthy of such attention getting devices.

Just as an Evangelical is right to confront a catholic who thinks ‘being good’ earns him a place in heaven, a catholic is right to confront a protestant who believes his actions are totally irrelevent to his relationship to God.

Peace.
 
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manualman:
rlg,

Rebuke accepted. In general. However, in a situation where an attack is clearly made, it may be useful (perhaps even pastoral) to surprise the attacker with a rather more vigorous defense than he expected.

Just as a tragic number of catholics fail to understand the difference between ‘merit’ and '‘earn’ in catholic theology of salvation, there are a fair number of evangelicals who have not realized that what they truly believe inside is harmful to their own sanctification. I have had quite an immersion in the evangelical culture at times in my life and I can tell you first-hand that the “covered sin” view of salvation is alive and well in American Evangelicals, even if their senior theologans have grown beyond it. The bluntness of my example, has repeatedly earned me grudging respect from earnest evangelicals. I judged a low-post # author’s thread consisting of a one sentence attack to be worthy of such attention getting devices.

Just as an Evangelical is right to confront a catholic who thinks ‘being good’ earns him a place in heaven, a catholic is right to confront a protestant who believes his actions are totally irrelevent to his relationship to God.

Peace.
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Thank you for the advice. I agree with your example and will probably use it when the argument merits it. I thought you came on a little strong, but your assessment of the original poster certainly sounds accurate - “What is it people?” doesn’t sound charitable.

I get frustrated easily in discussions with Evangelicals, and it makes it difficult for me to keep my cool. Especially if they inform me that I’m going to hell 🙂 .

God Bless,

Robert.
 
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