Salvation

  • Thread starter Thread starter newby
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
N

newby

Guest
I need help to talk to a Lutheran friend of mine.

He says that Catholics believe that salvation is not just thru Jesus alone, but that they need to “work” their way into heaven. He says purgatory is proof. He says that proves Catholics believe that works are as important as faith.

I tried to explain that Catholics believe that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus’ sacrifice in His death. We believe that free will allows us to accept the salvation. We show it by keeping the commandments…not sinning, but repenting when we fail. We believe that purgatory is only purfication/atonement before we go to see God in heaven.

I need help to convince him of the actual position of the Catholic church. We don’t believe that we can work our way into heaven. HELP!!

God Bless You

Newby
 
Suggest reading Part three, chapter three, article 2, Grace and Justification, in the Catechism. A summary can be found on pages 489 and 490. A major work on this subject was written by Rogert A. Sungenis, Not by Faith Alone, which I have attempted to complete several times but have not made it through. I think you can see from the title of the book that Catholic doctirne differs greatly from Protestant on this subject.
 
PURGATORY: A state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven (1031; cf. 1472).If you have a Catechism this is the definition of Purgatory many do not know this but of more import is the references in the Catechism, you need to take the time to read this in order to answer the questions this person will have. Then in laymans terms having the scriptures and catechism passages in mind I relate something like this.

I have accepted Jesus as my Lord, savior, and God. I can not wait until the day I will see Him face to face, however I am a sinner and know that nothing unclean can enter Heaven. Being fully aware of the fact that My Lord has forgiven my sins I still know there are issues that when I die need to be cleaned up prior to me seeing God face to face. For example my Pride or Lust issues, I know that Jesus can forgive my sin but the tendency has to be changed, and he will help me do as much of that as possible this side of the grave, however I thank God for Purgatory as a place to put on my best clothes prior to meeting Him. Think of it He loves me enough to do for me what I could not do for myself, He changes me here and will finish me there so I will be able to stand before the Father and all His glory.

This is rough I know but I have had some success with it, purgatory is not a place in addition to Christ’s love it is a part of His love for us.

I would then ask him what he thinks of the scriptures that talk of faith without works being dead?

Hope this helps
Scott
 
St. James condemns the idea that we are saved by faith aprt from good works: "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone…For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead (James 2:24, 26).

From Father Frank Chacon and Jim Burnham:

"Luther’s battle cry, “justification by faith alone” is expressly contradicted by Scripture, which explains why he called the book of James (a part of God’s infallible Word) “an epistle of straw.”

"Catholics firmly agree with Protestants that the redemptive work of Christ is complete and all-sufficient. Through his suffering, death and resurrection, Jesus redemmed everyone: He paid for all sins and made it possible for anyone to be saved. However, we know that not everyone is automatically saved.

All Christians admit that people can fail to be saved by refusing to repent, or by refusing to cooperate with God’s grace in other areas. Although the redemptive work of Christ is complete, the merits of His redemption must still be applied to each person in order for him to be saved. Thus, a person must repent (Mt 4:17), believe in Jesus (Acts 16:31), keep the commandments (Mt. 19:16-17), and live a life of charity (1 Cor 13: 1-3), as Scripture plainly teaches. A Catholic who performs good works in Christ isn’t denying the complete work of Christ’s redemption; he is depending on it."
 
40.png
newby:
I need help to talk to a Lutheran friend of mine.

He says that Catholics believe that salvation is not just thru Jesus alone, but that they need to “work” their way into heaven. He says purgatory is proof. He says that proves Catholics believe that works are as important as faith.

I tried to explain that Catholics believe that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus’ sacrifice in His death. We believe that free will allows us to accept the salvation. We show it by keeping the commandments…not sinning, but repenting when we fail. We believe that purgatory is only purfication/atonement before we go to see God in heaven.

I need help to convince him of the actual position of the Catholic church. We don’t believe that we can work our way into heaven. HELP!!
Click to expand...
Part of the issue surrounding the conversations between Protestants and Catholics is one of semantics. There are real differences, but these sometimes become exaggerated due to the way each camp uses certain words.

This is true of the word “salvation”. Protestants use this word to refer to the point at which they were born again. Catholics can use it that way, but it is also oftentimes used by Catholics to refer to the entire process from when one is born again (in baptism) until one finally dies in a state of grace. Thus to a Protestant, one is saved by faith alone (because salvation = born again). To a Catholic, it is possible to be saved by faith and works (because salvation = being made perfect). Both are saying correct, though different things. A Protestant would (usually) say that good works are a necessary consequence of being born again (i.e., post-salvation). A Catholic would say that works are a necessary consequence of being born again (i.e., as part of the process of being saved). In both camps, good works cannot merit being born again. It is all by grace.

Because a Protestant doesn’t usually believe that salvation can be lost, he therefore exalts faith over works. Certainly, we enter a state of grace only through faith (in baptism). But our works help us to preserve that state of grace. After all, if we sin mortally, we fall from grace. Therefore, our works are very important. But again, only if we are already in a state of grace (gratuitously).

As to his claim that purgatory is proof that Catholics work their way into heaven… Ask him this. Does he believe that good works are a necessary consequence of having been born again? (Most Protestants would say yes. They would say that someone who claims to be born again, but doesn’t show forth fruit in their lives has reason to doubt that they were indeed born again.) This process of doing good works is what is called (by Catholics and Protestants) “sanctification”, because it is through these deeds that God is making us more like his Son. If doing these good works for sanctification isn’t works-salvation, then neither is purgatory. Because purgatory is nothing more than this process of sanctification happening after our death. Because we don’t die perfectly conformed to the image of his Son, then God will complete that work in us after our death.
 
the relationship between faith and works is definitly a hot issue between Catholics and Lutherans. I myself being a former Lutheran found it useful to think of the relationship simalar to the relationship between Faith and Reason. Faith is the base and works give strength to faith. works without faith is meaningless, much as reason with out faith is unreasonable. Faith without works is dead, Faith without reason is weak and susceptible to errors. I hope this helps a little.
 
40.png
newby:
I need help to talk to a Lutheran friend of mine.

He says that Catholics believe that salvation is not just thru Jesus alone, but that they need to “work” their way into heaven. He says purgatory is proof. He says that proves Catholics believe that works are as important as faith.

I tried to explain that Catholics believe that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus’ sacrifice in His death. We believe that free will allows us to accept the salvation. We show it by keeping the commandments…not sinning, but repenting when we fail. We believe that purgatory is only purfication/atonement before we go to see God in heaven.

I need help to convince him of the actual position of the Catholic church. We don’t believe that we can work our way into heaven. HELP!!

God Bless You

Newby
Click to expand...
Newby, if you like email me and I have some stuff that will help. Remember this…

When we speak of faith we speak of a fullness of faith. That is a faith filled with love, a faith that endures, a faith that is obedient to the commandments.

When Catholics speak of works, Protestants understand it to mean personal works. But we are speaking of Godly works. We are instruments of grace. In order to be an instrument of faith, we must allow God’s kindness or grace to move through us.

Another thing that you can consider is that faith is a gift from God and if it is a gift it is a work of God. There is no way to separate faith from works.

I can give you more by email.

God Bless,

Vincent
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top