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deb1
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TheGarg:
I would agree with your statement that we cannot do good works without God in us.
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DustinsDad
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This one always kind of cracks me up, because the end result is that it puts the Protestant in exactly the same position as the Catholic’s that they complain about…that is, one has to wait until the day they die for that absolute assurance of Salvation so often spoken of.
To use an extreme example, let’s say there’s a Christian who leads what appears to be a good fruitful Christian life for many years. Then they just apparently go “nuts”, visit a protistute, do a bunch of drugs, rob a bank, shoot the bank teller, and then go down in a hail of police bullets. Sad story eh?
Where the Protestant would say, “Looks like they weren’t really saved to begin with.” The Catholic would say, “Looks like they didn’t persevere until the end.”
No, the theif apparently didn’t have an RCC-type sacrament (but he could actually have been baptized previously - the Lord’s disciples did go out baptizing prior to His passion remember), but at the point on the cross it would have been physically impossible to have such while hanging on a cross dying. That’s what we’d call baptism of desire - and it’s a part of Catholic teaching:
(CCC 1259)For *catechumens *who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
Also, keep in mind that while we are bound by the Sacraments, God is not:
(CCC 1257) The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
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TESSfromCALVARY
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MariaG
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I think you still do not understand what sacraments are.
Sacraments are basically miracles from God. We do them not because we have faith in the promises of Christ. We do them because Christ told us to, Scripture attests to this.
God frequently has chosen to show His power and glory through things. For example, Christ healed a blind man by placing mud on his eyes, a handkerchief Paul used healed people when they touched it. All of these things are in the Bible.
That’s what the sacraments are, God manifesting His power to us.
It would be possible for someone to “do” all the sacraments but have no faith in Christ, no faith in His miracles. That person would probably end up to be one of those who call out "Lord, Lord, and He tells them “I do not know you”.
God is not jealous of the sacraments, He instituted them. I will only put one Bible verse for each even though they each have many more.
Baptism - Jn 3:5
Confession - John 20:21-23
Annointing of the sick - James 5:14-15
Holy Orders - Tit 1:5
Confirmation - 2Cor 1:21-22
Matrimony - Mt 19:5-6
Eucharist - Mt 26:26
Sacraments are not something we do, they are gifts from God that we accept in faith in Christ or reject for lack of faith.
God Bless,
Maria
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TESSfromCALVARY
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TESSfromCALVARY
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[CORRECTION QUOTE=TESSfromCALVARY]
I don’t think, but not absolutely sure, that a true child of God’s, …
SHOULD READ: I think, but not absolutely sure that a true child of God’s, …
I don’t think, but not absolutely sure, that a true child of God’s, …
SHOULD READ: I think, but not absolutely sure that a true child of God’s, …
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TESSfromCALVARY
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[CORRECTION QUOTE=TESSfromCALVARY]
Since circumcision is O.T. and baptism is N.T., I think they are one in the same for different groups, i.e., Jew and Gentile.
SHOULD READ: Jew and Christian.
Since circumcision is O.T. and baptism is N.T., I think they are one in the same for different groups, i.e., Jew and Gentile.
SHOULD READ: Jew and Christian.
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TESSfromCALVARY
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Genesis315
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We are saved by grace. The sacraments are the normative ways that God confers His grace. If one knowingly rejects the sacraments, one rejects God’s grace and you will not be saved. If you are unable to receive them or you reject the sacraments through no fault of your own, you may be saved.
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TESSfromCALVARY
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TESSfromCALVARY
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DustinsDad
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The way the original language works it would more accurately read “believe and keep believing” - it’s a “perfect present participle” or something like that…get’s lost in the translation to English. But anyway, if you don’t respect the way Jesus set up Salvation in the Sacrament of Baptism, do you really believe in Him wholeheartedly? You must believe indeed - but that means you can’t knowingly and willfully reject anything He has taught us.
If you remember the gospel where Jesus put mud on the eyes of the blind man and healed him - rejecting the Sacrament of Baptism would be akin to this blind fella walking out on Jesus because he didn’t think he needed the mud. Bottom line is this…Jesus set it up this way, believe Him completely or don’t
Well, that’s what the Sacrament of Reconcilliation is for (see John 20:23)…but for verses that CLEARLY show that Christians can fall from grace, take your pick. There’s a gazillion of 'em. Here’s my “favorite”
John 20:20-22)For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.
Correct, and if you have receive faith when nailed to a cross and are about to die, you couldn’t be baptized. The church Christ established understands that God is not going to hold people to account for what they have no control over, this would violate God’s justice.
However, if you receive the gift of faith, that faith will move you to seek and receive Baptism, since it is the command of Jesus Christ. Hence, baptism of desire. Faith if you will.
True - but what is that belief? Partial belief, or complete? If you say with your mouth you believe, but in your heart refuse to believe what He taught, will you still be saved?
So does ours - it’s a paraphrase, since “born of water and spirit” is being reborn - the second birth that Christ is speaking of (see the entire context of this passage). It is how it was understood then and still is today - 2000+ years of constant Christian teaching.
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DustinsDad
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(continued from above)
Nowhere in history has human birth been described as “born of water”, so the phrase wouldn’t have made sense to any of his listeners. It is hardly a reference to emniotic(sp?) fluid - that’s a blatant streeeeeeetch to try to bend Jesus’ words to fit a man-made teaching that came along centuries after Christ’s teaching were given to His church.
Further, immediately after this discource with Nicode’mus, we see Jesus and the apostels begin doing exactly what Jesus was talking about - baptising:
John 3:22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized.
(1 Peter 3:21) Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Peter is saying baptism doesn’t save us because it’s a really good bathing experience washing of physical dirt from our bodies, but saves us because it is the indwelling of God’s life into our souls through the power of the risen Lord.
Of course faith is involved, that’s a crucial part of it. But if what you said earlier were true (that we’re saved at the instance of faith…done deal), then bapstism wouldn’t save, because they would have already been “saved” previous to being baptised and Peter here would have been mistaken. In fact, baptism is indeed the culmination of the faith, being born again in water and Spirit. Remember Acts 2:38 when the people who had already accepted Peter’s testimony at Penticost asked him what to do…he said:
“Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
In addition, it is a crucial part of the very command God gives the apostles:
(Matt 28:18-20) And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” See here that we are made Jesus’ disciples - one of His own - by baptism.
Peace in Christ!
DustinsDad
No offence, but that’s a non-sensical, non-authoritative, interpretation - a tradition of man if you will. He didn’t say “born once of water, then born again of spirit”. He said you have to be “born of water and spirit”. Period.
Nowhere in history has human birth been described as “born of water”, so the phrase wouldn’t have made sense to any of his listeners. It is hardly a reference to emniotic(sp?) fluid - that’s a blatant streeeeeeetch to try to bend Jesus’ words to fit a man-made teaching that came along centuries after Christ’s teaching were given to His church.
Further, immediately after this discource with Nicode’mus, we see Jesus and the apostels begin doing exactly what Jesus was talking about - baptising:
John 3:22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized.
How can you say baptism avails nothing, when the very verse you cite says baptism saves us?
(1 Peter 3:21) Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Peter is saying baptism doesn’t save us because it’s a really good bathing experience washing of physical dirt from our bodies, but saves us because it is the indwelling of God’s life into our souls through the power of the risen Lord.
Of course faith is involved, that’s a crucial part of it. But if what you said earlier were true (that we’re saved at the instance of faith…done deal), then bapstism wouldn’t save, because they would have already been “saved” previous to being baptised and Peter here would have been mistaken. In fact, baptism is indeed the culmination of the faith, being born again in water and Spirit. Remember Acts 2:38 when the people who had already accepted Peter’s testimony at Penticost asked him what to do…he said:
“Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
In addition, it is a crucial part of the very command God gives the apostles:
(Matt 28:18-20) And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” See here that we are made Jesus’ disciples - one of His own - by baptism.
You are trying to use Paul’s words to do battle with Christ’s…Paul was speaking against the Judaizers, those who thought Christians still had to keep the levitical laws (i.e. circumcision)…this is not a refutation of baptism. It doesn’t fit the context of Paul’s message - and cannot be a refuation of the necessity of baptism unless you do away with so many other parts of Scripture. Gotta take the complete Word of God sister!
Peace in Christ!
DustinsDad
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DustinsDad
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Tess,
It’s been an interesting discussing these things with you.
If you came here of good will, to honestly seek out and understand what the Catholic Church teaches - I think you’ve been given a good start - and enough Scripture verses back up Catholic claims to satisfy even the firmest holder to “sola-Scriptura”. Doesn’t mean you are going to accept them, but you should respectfully see how such beliefs are not at all “un-Biblical”.
If, on the other hand, you came here to prosteltyze* faithful* Catholics, I think you’ll find your time has been less than, eh, “fruitful”.
Frankly, that’s the impression I’ve been getting…but I didn’t want to you to walk away without getting the answers you probably thought didn’t exist.
It now looks like you’re starting to talk past the participants here, and are not answering all (perhaps any) of the questions/challenges put back in your direction.
I’m going to hold back and see if you do address these things (especially the multitude of Scriptural passages that conflict with the Calvinist theology I suspect you are holding to). If not, I’ll have to say again: Peace in Christ - and remove myself from the conversation.
Peace in Christ!
Dustinsdad
It’s been an interesting discussing these things with you.
If you came here of good will, to honestly seek out and understand what the Catholic Church teaches - I think you’ve been given a good start - and enough Scripture verses back up Catholic claims to satisfy even the firmest holder to “sola-Scriptura”. Doesn’t mean you are going to accept them, but you should respectfully see how such beliefs are not at all “un-Biblical”.
If, on the other hand, you came here to prosteltyze* faithful* Catholics, I think you’ll find your time has been less than, eh, “fruitful”.
Frankly, that’s the impression I’ve been getting…but I didn’t want to you to walk away without getting the answers you probably thought didn’t exist.
It now looks like you’re starting to talk past the participants here, and are not answering all (perhaps any) of the questions/challenges put back in your direction.
I’m going to hold back and see if you do address these things (especially the multitude of Scriptural passages that conflict with the Calvinist theology I suspect you are holding to). If not, I’ll have to say again: Peace in Christ - and remove myself from the conversation.
Peace in Christ!
Dustinsdad
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TheGarg
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Tess,
I would also like to address the bigger issue here, which is sales/marketing…
ALOT of protestant denominations make Salvation appear as easy or a one time act, and it simply is not…
Why?..the Easy way draws more fallible people who do not want to own up to thier sins. Be the motive money or pride, it is a good business to sell convienance.
Life is hard, and everyone’s human desire’s bring temptaion to sin, which everyone does. We must ask constant forgiveness of our sins against God and our fellow Man[This is a work by the way].IF you die unrepentant, you might face the fires of Hell.
Bottom line, is salvation is not gauranteed. The SAVING GRACE that provides for salvation is gauranteed, but unfortunatley we can fall from that Grace, on a daily basis.
Alot of people are misled by protestant churches, to believe that somehow once you say the word, it is a sealed deal, and it isn’t a sealed deal.
The deal is sealed upon our physical death, when we will wait to face our judgement.
I would also like to address the bigger issue here, which is sales/marketing…
ALOT of protestant denominations make Salvation appear as easy or a one time act, and it simply is not…
Why?..the Easy way draws more fallible people who do not want to own up to thier sins. Be the motive money or pride, it is a good business to sell convienance.
Life is hard, and everyone’s human desire’s bring temptaion to sin, which everyone does. We must ask constant forgiveness of our sins against God and our fellow Man[This is a work by the way].IF you die unrepentant, you might face the fires of Hell.
Bottom line, is salvation is not gauranteed. The SAVING GRACE that provides for salvation is gauranteed, but unfortunatley we can fall from that Grace, on a daily basis.
Alot of people are misled by protestant churches, to believe that somehow once you say the word, it is a sealed deal, and it isn’t a sealed deal.
The deal is sealed upon our physical death, when we will wait to face our judgement.
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deb1
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DustinsDad:
“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, …”
If you go up to verse 6-8 in 1 John 5 you will get an entirely different picture.
This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water ony but with the water and the blood. And the spirit is the one that testifies, fo rthe Spirit is the truth. There are three that testify. The spirit and the water and the blood and these three agree.
One of the odd things about some Protestants is that they completly take the bible out of context to prove their doctrine and then claim to go by the bible. You need to read verses in context of not just the surronding chapters but in context of the surronding books that they come in.
…baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.”
Reborn of water? My bible says: “…Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
It has been interpreted that to be born of water refers to our 1st birth (in my case 1960), and of the spirit refers to being born again (in my case 1980).
Jesus’ words **except thou **seems to contradict this interpretation.Your interpretation indicates that there is some other way to be born. Think about it **Unless you be born of water and the Spirit…**Is there any way for us to be physically born but of a woman and amniotic fluid? The only way this makes sense if is Jesus is talking about a new birth that involves water baptisim and faith.
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jimmy
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Ignatius:
Salvation is a process. We were saved in the past, we are being saved, and we will be saved.
It depends what you mean by obedience. If you mean that we would have to follow laws and rules, then no. But if you mean to love Christ and to do his will, then yes. In the process of salvation we are supposed to become more Christ-like, and are love for God is supposed to grow. That is accomplished by using the grace given to us by God to do his will.
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