Sarah, Hagar and Mary

[nablaise]

I have been investigating Islam for a while, and now I just noticed some interesting parallel between these those women.

They were both humble servants
For both, a son was born who was not theirs, yet theirs
They both got persecuted, by (Sarah…in a sense)
They run to the desert
They were helped by angels

It seems like there is a symbolic role of Hagar that we neglect in the Church, yet it could help us reach out to Muslims. Yet, Islam seems to be in all simplicity the Faith of Hagar: Faith in one God from a slave perspective.
It was restored somewhat with extra distortions by her descendant Mohammad.
It seems like this Faith was symbolized in the Bible by the stream of water that the angel poured out when Hagar and Ismael were wondering and about to die in the desert.
Why would God preserve them if he did not intend them to be significant in the future.
Why would He make Ismael somewhat parallel to Jacob (Israel) both with 12 sons.

I think Judaism and Islam are both tribal monotheistic religion before God. I think also Mary will have a key role in giving the final character of what the Catholic Church will eventually look like when Islam is more properly understood.

Mary is a great mystery who unite both women and the Faiths that streamed from them. Mary is a daughter of Sarah, and yet Sarah (Judaism) persecuted her as she did Hagar out of jealousy and worldly worries concerning material inheritance.

 

[beafedor]

It should be mentioned here that according to Muslim tradition, Ishmael, (Abraham’s and the slave Hagar’s son), is the Son of the Promise. To the Jews and Christians, it is of course Jacob who is the Son of Promise. (The son that God promised Abraham will have despite his old age). Genesis chapter 17:15-21=

God further said to Abraham: “As for your wife Sarai, do not call her Sarai; her name shall be Sarah. I will bless her, and I will give you a son by her. Him also will I bless; he shall give rise to nations, and rulers of peoples shall issue from him.” Abraham prostrated himself and laughed as he said to himself, “Can a child be born to a man who is a hundred years old? Or can Sarah give birth at ninety?” Then Abraham said to God, “Let but Ishmael live on by your favor!” God replied: “Nevertheless, your wife Sarah is to bear you a son, and you shall call him Isaac. I will maintain my covenant with him as an everlasting pact, to be his God and the God of his descendants after him. As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation. But my covenant I will maintain with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you by this time next year.”

Muslims also believe that the Advocate/ the Paraclete/Comforter… that God will send as mentioned in the Gospel of John (chapters 13 to 16), is the prophet Mohammad and not the Holy Spirit.

 

[nablaise]

Yes, for us it is written that it was Isaac who was the son of the promise.
For Muslim, the Koran does not specify what son. Muslim scholars argued about it for a while and later on the opinion that Ismael was the one prevailed.

Nevertheless, I think Hagar was a great woman and a great prototype of Mary in her humility and submission. And this is the best image that should have been presented to Arabs as well as Muslims. In a way, Hagar will guide them to understanding Mary and the Incarnation.

Unfortunately, the first Christians who landed in Arabia were heretics (Arians and Monophisites, …Arabia ) who had trouble making sense of the Trinity. There were many Christians sects there. Mohammad must have embraced a vague belief in Jesus, the same way a non-denominational Christian today can form an idea of Jesus from TV preachers and build on it some inspirations which can turn out to be conviction of a great revelation.

In the Bible, God has already given us a hint that He loved Hagar and Ismael and meant them to mean something for the future, in fact he preserved them. We should not keep acting like this is not in the Bible. Perhaps that’s why we are paying for it with all these Muslim fundamentalism.

 

[beafedor]

I’m thinking the same thing about the Prophet, that he had some confused knowledge of Christianity.
St Paul also speaks of Hagar in Galatians chapter 4:
Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the freeborn woman. The son of the slave woman was born naturally, the son of the freeborn through a promise. Now this is an allegory. These women represent two covenants. One was from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; this is Hagar. Hagar represents Sinai, a mountain in Arabia; it corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery along with her children. But the Jerusalem above is freeborn, and she is our mother. For it is written: “Rejoice, you barren one who bore no children; break forth and shout, you who were not in labor; for more numerous are the children of the deserted one than of her who has a husband.” Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of the promise. But just as then the child of the flesh persecuted the child of the spirit, it is the same now. But what does the scripture say? “Drive out the slave woman and her son! For the son of the slave woman shall not share the inheritance with the son” of the freeborn. Therefore, brothers, we are children not of the slave woman but of the freeborn woman.

 

[beafedor]

By the way, I have heard non denominational Christians using the verses I just quoted to justify hostility and war toward Muslims and Zionists political views (this is taught in a non denom Bible Study of Genesis).

 

[ConstantineTG]

Yes, for us it is written that it was Isaac who was the son of the promise.
For Muslim, the Koran does not specify what son. Muslim scholars argued about it for a while and later on the opinion that Ismael was the one prevailed.

Nevertheless, I think Hagar was a great woman and a great prototype of Mary in her humility and submission. And this is the best image that should have been presented to Arabs as well as Muslims. In a way, Hagar will guide them to understanding Mary and the Incarnation.

Unfortunately, the first Christians who landed in Arabia were heretics (Arians and Monophisites, …Arabia ) who had trouble making sense of the Trinity. There were many Christians sects there. Mohammad must have embraced a vague belief in Jesus, the same way a non-denominational Christian today can form an idea of Jesus from TV preachers and build on it some inspirations which can turn out to be conviction of a great revelation.

In the Bible, God has already given us a hint that He loved Hagar and Ismael and meant them to mean something for the future, in fact he preserved them. We should not keep acting like this is not in the Bible. Perhaps that’s why we are paying for it with all these Muslim fundamentalism.

I think you’re making too much personal interpretation into Hagar. Hagar is a slave, she has no opinion of her own. Once dismissed, she cannot say no and do otherwise. Her submission is by no means reflective of the submission of Mary.

 

[nablaise]

I think you’re making too much personal interpretation into Hagar. Hagar is a slave, she has no opinion of her own. Once dismissed, she cannot say no and do otherwise. Her submission is by no means reflective of the submission of Mary.

I think it is in this almost perfect submission that she typifies Mary actually. Don’t we call Mary sinless to the point of causing our protestant brothers to think that we believe she had no freedom to sin?

I don’t know but I would like to know of other biblical women who talked to Angels beside Hagar and Mary.

The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. 8And he said, “Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?” “I’m running away from my mistress Sarai,” she answered. 9Then the angel of the LORD told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” 10The angel added, “I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count.” 11The angel of the LORD also said to her: “You are now with child and you will have a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the LORD has heard of your misery. 12He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.” 13She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.” 14That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered. 15So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son she had borne. 16Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael

I think the biggest difference between these two women is the fact that Hagar submitted to Abraham and Sarai, and Mary submitted to God and the Holy Spirit. And I think this is where the key may be in converting Muslims. Only Mary can unite the Jews and the Arabs. Mary seems like a daughter of both Sarai (in freedom and inheritance) and Hagar (in humility and submission). I would not be surprised if genealogies prove it, it would have prophetic significance.

 

[nablaise]

By the way, I have heard non denominational Christians using the verses I just quoted to justify hostility and war toward Muslims and Zionists political views (this is taught in a non denom Bible Study of Genesis).

That quote is fully loaded!
After his conversion, Paul said that he went to Arabia and around Asia. I wonder what he thoughts of the Arabs. Apparently the Koran speaks of a preacher of God who tried to preach to Arabs and failed. Now the world is different from what he saw then. I think he would say more about Hagar and Ismael today.

Well, I think the woman who best typifies Christianity is Mary. Sarah perhaps as a grand-mother figure, but Mary is more direct. Sarah symbolize the Christian freedom according to her birth. But according to her attitude when she kicked out the child she had asked for, she symbolizes Judaism persecuting Jesus the savior it has asked for.

 

[nablaise]

Well, I think the woman who best typifies Christianity is Mary. Sarah perhaps as a grand-mother figure, but Mary is more direct. Sarah symbolize the Christian freedom according to her birth. But according to her attitude when she kicked out the child she had asked for, she symbolizes Judaism persecuting Jesus the savior it has asked for

I have to reply to myself here and make some correction.
When I say that I think Sarah by her attitude later, symbolizes Judaism persecuting Jesus and Mary, I mean only the parallel that can be seen nothing else.

I am not saying that Mary is like Hagar who once pregnant, started to ‘despise’ her mistress…provoking her to anger…later an angel had to tell Hagar to go back and behave properly…

God bless

 

[Reuben_J]

Well, I think the woman who best typifies Christianity is Mary. Sarah perhaps as a grand-mother figure, but Mary is more direct. Sarah symbolize the Christian freedom according to her birth. But according to her attitude when she kicked out the child she had asked for, she symbolizes Judaism persecuting Jesus the savior it has asked for.

I don’t know. That does not seem right. Hagar is a slave, she has no freedom of her own except to follow the will of her master. The fact that she despises her mistress (Sara) after giving birth to her son shows that she is not really that obedient after all. Mary is a free woman; she has choices and therefore her decision is from her freewill.

Thus we have slave (Hagar) who has no freedom and free woman (Mary) who is free. Both do the thing they are asked to do but the slave woman did it because she had no choice while the free woman, because she wanted to.