C
cisco_1
Guest
Based on your number 2 and number 3, when exactly did Satan fall then. Was it before the creation of man, was it before/during/after the time of Job, or was it during/before/after Chronicles?
- Status
P
patrick457
Guest
Just another tangent.
Medieval theologians debated as to just how long the angels’ probation took place, and just exactly ‘when’ Satan fell. Since angels are generally superior to humans, they thought the angelic mind acted instantaneously, unlike us, who need to ‘think over’ things first before arriving at conclusions. It was pure intelligence as distinguished from reason. So the idea was, maybe from our perspective, the probation, the ‘war’ and the fall all happened in a single instant: one moment the angels were still ‘pure’, but just blink for a moment and some of them have already fallen. (But then again, from an angel’s perspective a single human instant could be equivalent to the longer period needed by slowly-moving mortals like us. Again, the difference between humans and angels again come into play here.)
There was this hypothetical question: could Satan have fallen in the first instant in which - i.e. ‘as soon as’ (from our perspective, at least) - he was created? Two eminent theologians, the Dominican St. Thomas Aquinas and the Franciscan Duns Scotus, took opposing sides to the question. Aquinas argued that the fall could not have taken place in the first instant, because that would make it look like their sin had come from God, while Scotus left open the abstract possibility of sin in the first instant. But it is agreed that this is not what happened, since in the passages from Scripture interpreted as typologically (sorry for the big word) referring to Satan’s fall - Isaiah and Ezekiel - it is inferred that for at least one instant he had existed in a state of innocence. So there would have at least been a time between the creation of the angels and the fall of Satan when he was in a state of grace.
Medieval theologians debated as to just how long the angels’ probation took place, and just exactly ‘when’ Satan fell. Since angels are generally superior to humans, they thought the angelic mind acted instantaneously, unlike us, who need to ‘think over’ things first before arriving at conclusions. It was pure intelligence as distinguished from reason. So the idea was, maybe from our perspective, the probation, the ‘war’ and the fall all happened in a single instant: one moment the angels were still ‘pure’, but just blink for a moment and some of them have already fallen. (But then again, from an angel’s perspective a single human instant could be equivalent to the longer period needed by slowly-moving mortals like us. Again, the difference between humans and angels again come into play here.)
There was this hypothetical question: could Satan have fallen in the first instant in which - i.e. ‘as soon as’ (from our perspective, at least) - he was created? Two eminent theologians, the Dominican St. Thomas Aquinas and the Franciscan Duns Scotus, took opposing sides to the question. Aquinas argued that the fall could not have taken place in the first instant, because that would make it look like their sin had come from God, while Scotus left open the abstract possibility of sin in the first instant. But it is agreed that this is not what happened, since in the passages from Scripture interpreted as typologically (sorry for the big word) referring to Satan’s fall - Isaiah and Ezekiel - it is inferred that for at least one instant he had existed in a state of innocence. So there would have at least been a time between the creation of the angels and the fall of Satan when he was in a state of grace.
P
patrick457
Guest
If you believe that Adam and Eve sinned by Satan’s instigation (Wisdom 2:24 “But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world”), it would follow that he must have fallen some ‘time’ before man fell.
What the OT shows is progressive revelation, an evolution in our (human) understanding of what Satan is as more pieces of the puzzle is gradually revealed to us. (Just like a seed growing into a tree.) Remember what I said in one of the first posts I made here: in Israelite religion before the exile to Babylon there was no clear idea of a Devil-like figure yet. All acts, good and evil, were ascribed to the action of God (that’s why 1 Samuel could speak of God sending evil spirits to torment Saul.) At best, you only have (1) the story of God smiting down monsters of chaos from the beginning of creation and (2) this prosecuting figure of the book of Job - the satan - who spies on people and incriminate them before the heavenly court to start with. It was only after the Exile (1 Chronicles belongs to this period) that the ‘true’ nature of Satan and the creation and fall of angels was gradually revealed.
meltzerboy
New member
Even if Satan’s fall from grace occurred somewhat later than an instant, it still sounds as though he is a faulty creation by G-d, a kind of proto-angel or Frankenstein. For this reason, I tend to agree with Aquinas (although, as already noted, Judaism does not believe Satan fell at all, which I will someday attempt to explain) rather than Scotus. Further, are we speaking of temporality in the case of angels in heaven, or does an extra-temporal state apply to them as it does to G-d?
E
ericc
Guest
We can’t really tell. Enoch 1 though not canonical suggest that some angels that lusted after daughters of man were cast out of heaven and that would be post -Adam. Notwithstanding fallen angels, the OT is peppered with unclean/evil spirits or demons and serpents which did not seem to have angelic roots. Foreign deities such as Baal although deemed inferior to the Abrahamic God, are not tagged as fallen angels either in the OT although Christians tend to lump them together under the category of Evil and in the NT with Satan Lucifer as the head. That itself may not be surprising as the former chief angel although cast out of heaven still has all his powers and I presume stronger than all the others and therefore assume leadership position.
Aquinas did not believe that the Devil sin at the instant of creation as it would mean he did not have the opportunity to exercise free will leading to the inference that he was created evil.
Notwithstanding all the above, what is important to take away for Satan that there is progression from a servant of God to an enemy of God. When it happen is not important. Likewise for Adam/Eve. When it happened does not matter. It did.
P
patrick457
Guest
Yes. This idea (that the “sons of God” spoken of in Genesis 6 are literal angels / that the fallen angels begat the Nephilim / the cause of the angels’ fall was lust) however was eventually rejected in Christianity, because of the eventual belief that angels are bodiless spirits and so could not really experience lust nor father children. So while some of the earliest Fathers did believe this, later on we see a shift towards rejecting this idea and proposing instead some other possible cause of the fall (say, pride). Some writers - such as Athenagoras of Athens (2nd century) and Tertullian - even distinguished between Satan’s sin and the sin of the other fallen angels. But by the time we get to St. Augustine in the late 4th century, he was discrediting the book of Enoch (parts of which was appropriated by the Manicheans - a group he joined at one time) and saying that the “sons of God” who lusted after “the daughters of men” were not so much angels but humans.
Exactly.
G
glendab
Guest
Hello Cisco.
Glenda
Your question cannot be answered with an exact point in time when the angels fell. It happened though, that you can rest assured about and you can also know that it happened long before you were born. Don’t doubt it.
Glenda
C
cisco_1
Guest
My honest reply is that the the story of the fall of angels really makes no sense. First, it was said that Angels were not in heaven that they were reaching towards it. This statement is built off someones assertion which has no basis. Second, an estimation on the time Satan fell means allot because remember, Dinosaurs existed before humans did and during the time of Dinosaurs there was only the laws of nature “survival of the fittest”, there was still eating of flesh, fights and killings for mates/territory, etc.You can see that the evils of this world have always been here even prior to this fallen angel who goes around spamming temptation. An estimation is needed because we can clearly see in Job and some of the other parts of the OT that Satan was in no doubt part of the court of heaven, doing what the Jewish believe him to do.
You guys should think of it yourselves, if Satan did fall from heaven then that means the very first original sin started in heaven therefore why is it that Heaven did not end up like the world we have today due to sin entering it? If hundreds or millions of angels sinned up there while only 2 people sinned in this world, then don’t you think the amount of sin that entered heaven was greater than that of Earth?
I honestly think that Satan is metaphorical… in short, there is no evil king entity trying to fight God, maybe the jews are still right that the haSatan is still an angel in the courts of heaven who’s role is to test other people in hopes that they will pass. The Satan talked about in heaven is probably our negative sides: the animalistic nature we have that can go against our morality.
B
bisco1
Guest
are you saying you don’t believe the teaching of the church?
M
Mintaka
Guest
Cisco_1, you clearly are in a good position to be reading the Fathers! You keep thinking of the same arguments they bring up!
The war in heaven is indeed supposed to have taken place in the heaven meaning “sky or space,” or in some other place; but not in the Heaven meaning “where God lives.” Once the good angels made their decision to be good, they were admitted to Heaven to dwell with God.
I’ll try and find the exact quote, because it was very interesting; but that was the general belief.
The war in heaven is indeed supposed to have taken place in the heaven meaning “sky or space,” or in some other place; but not in the Heaven meaning “where God lives.” Once the good angels made their decision to be good, they were admitted to Heaven to dwell with God.
I’ll try and find the exact quote, because it was very interesting; but that was the general belief.
M
Mintaka
Guest
Still looking for the quote!
There was also something to the effect that only after they chose God did the good angels begin to experience the Beatific Vision and heavenly bliss. (Which makes sense, since you really wouldn’t want anything different from God’s will at that point.)
There was also something to the effect that only after they chose God did the good angels begin to experience the Beatific Vision and heavenly bliss. (Which makes sense, since you really wouldn’t want anything different from God’s will at that point.)
G
glendab
Guest
Hello Cisco.
Glenda
Some of the things you don’t believe must be believed with divine and Catholic faith. If you have a serious doubt, you need to pray about it and study it till you can agree fully with it, but in the meantime, you need to give your assent to it. The are some things you can speculate upon, but somethings you cannot. Original sin is one thing you must agree upon to be Catholic in good faith. You must also believe that the devil is real not a metaphor. There is much about our faith that on first appearance makes no “sense.” There are many contradictions and many difficult items that aren’t easily proven in a common sense. But you list yourself as Catholic, you must agree with the Church’s teaching on a bunch of stuff. I am assuming you are young still, I kinda sense that in your manner of “speaking” here. Correct me if I misread that. It is good you are here learning what you need to to become a better Catholic. Keep exploring and asking questions, but when the authentic teachings of the Church are presented, recognize them for what they are - the truth.
Glenda
I
irenaeuslyons
Guest
Big dinos eating little dinos is a metaphysical evil. It is only evil by analogy.
There are three kinds of evil… moral, physical and metaphysical. We need a Savior because of our moral evil. God created physical evil. But He did not create moral evil which is where we get sin.
As to the timeline of Satan’s fall, heaven is thought of as being part of eternity. Just as God is outside of time, there is no mapping of time between heaven and earth. Its all speculation.
Original sin or ancestral sin (as it is also known), could only have been committed by a human being because it is part of our fallen nature as humans. The disobedience of an angel would not have any bearing on that because they have no bodies, no ancestors, no generation. Meaning, their hypothetical sin couldn’t be original to us as humans. It couldn’t be original to anything in the physical universe because they aren’t physical… they are spirits.
Satan is not the equal of God. He is merely a creature of God. But he does exist as a spiritual reality.
C
cisco_1
Guest
Evil is evil, i don’t think a type or categorization would make a difference. Sin is sin. You see, the problem I have with the concept of evil is that you can see it started even before Man came into existence. Dinosaurs eating each other is not a positive thing, just watch uncut wild life videos and see how brutal and in pain animals are when they are eaten alive… most people believe this horrific fact of nature came to be due to sin. Due to man’s sin (because of falling for the temptation of the serpent/satan), God became detached and we have such a horrific law of nature because of that. The thing is, due to what we know we can see that this has existed even before man. What made the dinosaurs like that, was satan tempting them to murder each other? I mean i think you can see how big the logic flaw is in concerns of this.
C
cisco_1
Guest
I thank you guys for explaining as best as possible and i apologies if my questioning seems too much. I’m not denying original sin, i’m just in doubt on the origin of sin and the existence of Satan. I’ve already addressed the logical flaw and the scriptural flaw too so i won’t repeat the same posts. While i understand that as catholics we just have to believe what the church says but i do think that sometimes we need to use our own minds as well in some cases. The existence of evil/satan is the biggest dogma with the biggest hole because when we map out the thoughts nothing really adds up.
E
ericc
Guest
1)No one knows when was the war of the heavens. Whether pre-post dinosaurs is irrelevant.
2)Angels were created with higher intelligence/powers. It is not surprising that the punishment for wrong for them is at a higher level. Unlike our First Parents, Satan sinned on his own accord. There is no one to tempt him. Being created the best of the lot, punishment would correspond to that. (That reminds me of the Parable of the Talents).
3) Thinking Satan doesn’t exist is dangerous. That’s why he is so successful. If you don’t believe in evil spirits, then you haven’t been exposed to certain parts of the world where they are ingrained into the culture. Asian/African countries are notorious for witch doctors, bomohs, mediums etc.
4) God did housekeeping in heaven after the Rebellion. The Fallen Angels were given Earth to stay or at least some parts of the earth. Jesus repeatedly reminds us that the Devil is Prince on Earth.
You certainly seem fascinated by the concept of Satan. If you believe the words of Jesus, you should not have ANY doubts as to his existence or nature. Not what I or other posters wrote. Unlike other Biblical prophets, only Jesus is the one who can claim eyewitness evidence as to what or who Satan is. Whose words do I trust?
I
irenaeuslyons
Guest
First of all, the introduction of death into the world was our death. The animal kingdom was not filled with immortal creatures before our Fall.
Secondly, without the Law there would be no sin. It took a decree from God forbidding the eating of fruit for there to be a sin.
Furthermore, without rational thought and free will, there would be no sin.
And finally, evil does not equal sin
E
ericc
Guest
That was for man. But for Satan, pride was his downfall. I don’t believe there was Law designed to prohibit Pride.
I find that a contradiction. I can’t imagine a being who is tagged supremely evil with no INTENTION to sin. By definition, an evil being exist because of some negative aspects of this being’s character or mindset. Whether this evil being has the capacity to do evil is a separate thing. Even to think about evil thoughts can be considered sinful even though this thinker has no capability to commit it.
I
irenaeuslyons
Guest
By man’s downfall, we are talking about the introduction of death. Satans downfall does not result in his death. Satan is a spirit just like the angels, and spirits don’t die because they don’t have bodies.
Evil does not equal sin. If I slip and fall into the ocean and i drown, this is not a moral evil. It is a physical evil because of my limitations. I cant breathe underwater. There was no sin, because there was no moral evil.
Satan is not supremely evil in the sense that he pure evil or somehow equal and opposite to God who is good. Good exists and existence is good whereas evil is a negation of good. For this reason, there could be no evil without good - there would simply be non-existence. However, there can be good without evil, i.e. pure existence, which by definition is pure and unlimited good. If Satan was pure evil, he would not exist.
- Status