Satisfying the divine law?

[Vinny213]

I have a question about salvation. Does God demand absolute strict perfect obedience from us in order for him to grant us eternal life? Or does he not demand absolute perfection? I heard Robert Sugenis say that once we come under grace we are taken out of the obligations of the law and God no longer treats us as a strict judge but as a loving father. Also does not the fact that we commit venial sins proof that we cannot fulfill the law perfectly? I found this quote from a catholic source that admits this much:

" God knowing our infirmity does not require from ns an absolute perfection in the fulfilment of his law but such a fulfilling as we can perform by the help of his grace if we exert ourselves."

 

[ConstantineTG]

We cannot be perfect by ourselves, only through God can we be perfect. No, the legalistic application of salvation is wrong. God does not give us eternal life because we conformed to his rules or passed his tests. Eternal life is achieved because we, through the help of God, has made ourselves able to accept God’s gift of eternal life.

 

[1ke]

I have a question about salvation. Does God demand absolute strict perfect obedience from us in order for him to grant us eternal life? Or does he not demand absolute perfection?

We are called to holiness and reconciliation is available when we fall.

I heard Robert Sugenis say that once we come under grace we are taken out of the obligations of the law and God no longer treats us as a strict judge but as a loving father. Also does not the fact that we commit venial sins proof that we cannot fulfill the law perfectly?

This person does not speak for the Church, and you should IMHO stay away from him and his writings in general. Please stick to solid Catholic teaching.

I found this quote from a catholic source that admits this much:

" God knowing our infirmity does not require from ns an absolute perfection in the fulfilment of his law but such a fulfilling as we can perform by the help of his grace if we exert ourselves."

Source? Context?

I would suggest that you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the sure norm for instructon in the Faith.

 

[Vinny213]

Constantine as an EO do you agree with the following quote from Calvinist professor Micahel Horton? Here is the quote:
Is such a distinction just playing with words? Surely not. The difference between “to declare righteous” and “to make righteous” is the difference between a definitive, once-and-for-all verdict and a gradual progression. If we are justified by a declaration, through faith alone, then the very moment we believe that Christ is our salvation we are declared righteous in Christ. If we are justified by a process of sanctification, which is never complete in this life, there is not a sufficient basis for God to ever accept us. After all, God does not grade on the curve; He requires absolute, perfect obedience, and anything short of it is sin. A holy God will not—cannot—violate one aspect of His own character (justice and holiness) for the sake of another (love and mercy).

How do the EO understand the law/gospel distinction?

 

[fhansen]

I have a question about salvation. Does God demand absolute strict perfect obedience from us in order for him to grant us eternal life? Or does he not demand absolute perfection? I heard Robert Sugenis say that once we come under grace we are taken out of the obligations of the law and God no longer treats us as a strict judge but as a loving father. Also does not the fact that we commit venial sins proof that we cannot fulfill the law perfectly? I found this quote from a catholic source that admits this much:

" God knowing our infirmity does not require from ns an absolute perfection in the fulfilment of his law but such a fulfilling as we can perform by the help of his grace if we exert ourselves."

That’s why the doctrine of purgatory makes so much sense. Sin, beginning with Adam’s sin, is what separates man from God. Even venial sins mean that our hearts are elsewhere; we don’t yet place God first above all else, as our justice demands. We aren’t yet capable of seeing God.

Yes, God demands perfection, as scripture attests; He demands that we simply be perfectly who He created us to be-no more and no less. He certainly didn’t create us to sin. And this is satisfied as we come to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. This is a work of His, with our cooperation, a process of His justifying us, placing His laws on our hearts and writing them in our minds, drawing, without forcing us, into alignment with His will, and by this love the Law is fulfilled.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange says (Three Ages, Part I, Ch. 12): “. . . all are obliged in a general way to tend to perfection, each according to his condition, without being obliged to be already perfect.” For the passage in St. Thomas he is paraphrasing (which goes into detail on perfection), see S.T. IIa IIae, q. 184.

 

[Vinny213]

1ke I disagree with your assessment of Robert Sugenis. The man is a solid Catholic Apologist and his teaching of being under grace and not law has been echoed by many other Catholic sources. Speaking of the catechism, do you know if there is a section in it that talks about fulfilling the law?

 

[Vinny213]

Im still waiting for a response from Constantine. I would like to see what his reaction is to the Horton quote.

 

[fhansen]

Constantine as an EO do you agree with the following quote from Calvinist professor Micahel Horton? Here is the quote:
Is such a distinction just playing with words? Surely not. The difference between “to declare righteous” and “to make righteous” is the difference between a definitive, once-and-for-all verdict and a gradual progression. If we are justified by a declaration, through faith alone, then the very moment we believe that Christ is our salvation we are declared righteous in Christ. If we are justified by a process of sanctification, which is never complete in this life, there is not a sufficient basis for God to ever accept us. After all, God does not grade on the curve; He requires absolute, perfect obedience, and anything short of it is sin. A holy God will not—cannot—violate one aspect of His own character (justice and holiness) for the sake of another (love and mercy).

How do the EO understand the law/gospel distinction?

But the work of restoring and perfecting creation is God’s work to begin with. So of course it can be-it must be-a process. We’re to do the best we can with what we’re given-He judges us by that in the end. If not yet fully molded into the creation the divine Potter has in mind He’ll finish His work of perfecting in purgatory. But He* will* finish it because, as scripture tells us, no sinners enter heaven-or else sin (rebellion against God’s will) would *be *in heaven.

We have to understand that we’re finally* just* when our wills agree with His. That’s the whole point of God allowing man to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil: to allow us, if we so choose-which Adam did and his descendants continue to do- to entertain and explore evil, IOW, to allow us to sin, to oppose His will, so that we may come to understand the folly of it all for ourselves and turn fully to the good-willingly. Otherwise God may as well have prevented Adam from sinning to begin with- or forgiven/restored him immediately afterwards-or, alternatively, simply stocked heaven with a certain number of people and hell with others.

 

[Vinny213]

I found the following quotes from Aquinas and the fathers which say that it is impossible for man to live completely free of sin and blameless in this life and to be a 100 percent pefrect while alive. Here are the quotes:
8 Aquinas on Galat iii lect 4 upon those words For it is written Cursed is he that continueth not in all things &c remarks that the Apostle proves the proposition and this according to the gloss is made evident that no one can keep the law in that manner which the law itself prescribed in Deut xxviii That every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them that is who does not fulfil the whole law is cursed. But to fulfil the whole law is impossible Here that God might what impossible.

Moral lib 17 cap 8 Gregory remarks Some being strengthened by the gift of the Spirit are enabled to resist the infirmity of the fiesh yet there is no one who can pass through life faultless so long as he bears about him a body of corruption. Two things are to be observed here one that Gregory is not speaking of the unregenerate.

The same author when writing in reply to the two Epistles of the Pelagians says book 3 chap 7 The righteous have in this world so performed the commands of God as to cause us to recollect that those commands themselves have a bearing upon that prayer in which the holy children of promise daily say with sincerity Forgive us our debts. To maintain that the commandments are no otherwise fulfilled than by asking the daily pardon of our sins undoubtedly implies the conviction that what is due to the law is not fully yielded by any man but that the debt of transgression is freely remitted to believers.

Can a Catholic agree with these quotes?

 

[Vinny213]

Constantine I am interested in your reply to my question.

 

[Vinny213]

Is anyone going to interact with my last 2 posts? I still want to know how much obedience is necessary to enter heaven? Is their a certain standard or number of rules and commandments we must follow?

 

[fhansen]

Is anyone going to interact with my last 2 posts? I still want to know how much obedience is necessary to enter heaven? Is their a certain standard or number of rules and commandments we must follow?

God’s the judge, not us. We’re to be simply oriented to obeying His will, as Jesus was.

 

[Vinny213]

Is it against the catholic faith to ask God to forgive us our sins and be merciful with is? Do we need to have our venial sins forgiven?

 

[davidv]

Is it against the catholic faith to ask God to forgive us our sins and be merciful with is?

Absolutely not. It is one of the core tenents of the faith that we are offered the opportunity to repent of our sins and appeal to God’s forgiveness and mercy.

Do we need to have our venial sins forgiven?

Yes, as nothing unclean can enter heaven.

 

[Vinny213]

Thanks for the reply david. So should a catholic seek the daily remission of his venial sins? Also what do you think of the idea that God imputes perfection to our imperfect works by forgiving our venial/mortal sins daily? If we die impure or tainted with sin in our life, is purgatory where we go to be purified and made fit for heaven? Is not purgatory only for the expiation of temporal debt and not becoming purified? Also what do you think of my patristic quotes from Aquinas and Gregory the Great?

 

[davidv]

Thanks for the reply david. So should a catholic seek the daily remission of his venial sins?

Seems that would be a excellent practice. In addition, by paying attention to the minor sins, one will be less likely to consider the serious ones.

Also what do you think of the idea that God imputes perfection to our imperfect works by forgiving our venial/mortal sins daily?

I cannot say. It not clear what you mean by “imputes perfection…”

If we die impure or tainted with sin in our life, is purgatory where we go to be purified and made fit for heaven? Is not purgatory only for the expiation of temporal debt and not becoming purified?

The Catechism address this nicely.

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

Also what do you think of my patristic quotes from Aquinas and Gregory the Great?

No comment.

 

[Vinny213]

Have you read the qoutes?