Saturnalia

[kmktexas]

I think I need a reality check. We got a calendar from my kids’ school that lists a Winter/Advent/Christmas/Saturnalia program in December. This is a Catholic school. When I looked up Saturnalia, I found that it was described as a neo-pagan festival for the Winter Solstice and featured sacrifices to the god Saturnus. I wrote the principal and he responded that it was a pagan festival, not a **neo-pagan ** one, no sacrifices would be offered and that it was a way to recognize the early Roman roots of Western culture. The school teaches Latin as its foreign language and he claims that this is a common thing for Latin classe to do.

I am beside myself. I can’t believe that I am the only parent who would think that a pagan celebration is inappropriate for Catholic school children and more upset that it would be mixed in with Christmas. If Christmas can’t be Christian at a Catholic school, where else could it be?

Has anyone experienced a Saturnalia? Am I overreaciting? My current inclination is to ask that my own children be excused from the pagan aspects of the program. I don’t want to hurt or embarras them but they are uncomfortable with this too.

 

[Thursday1]

Saturnalia is an ancient holiday that everyone in ancient Rome looked forward to. On this day Slaves were waited on by their masters, and the day that doctors and lawyers were paid (they were not allowed to charge for their services, so they got gifts at Saturnalia.) Of course it started out as a religious holiday, offering worship to Saturn, but became what Christmas has become, a secular holiday. I see no problem with a Catholic school to do, it gives the students who study Latin a chance to have some fun with Roman culture. I’m surprised the information you got said it was a “neo-pagan” holiday, most sources only mention the Roman side of it. Really towards the end of the Republic, Saturnalia just became an excuse to party and drink, with the religious parts just being a formality.

Yours in christ,
Thursday

 

[Ana]

I don’t know all the details, but it seems learning about something and making it a part of your Christmas program/celebration are two different things. A Catholic school Christmas program would be one place I would hope to have Christmas celebrated in a Catholic way.

Learning about it in class during the Christmas season, I think would be acceptable, but this program would have my red flags up too. Even if it did become secularized, why does a Catholic school want to secularize a Christmas program? Definately worth a deeper look … maybe speak to a priest?

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Oh this one is so easy!!! my hand is flying into the air to answer it.

There is a program called Calendar Creator. There are other versions of it, but Calendar Creator is the most wide-spread. It comes free with a lot of other programs (called “bundling”). The price is right, esp. for financially-strapped Catholic schools.

Calendar Creator has preprogrammed “remembrances” and “holidays” built into the program. When the program is installed, it allows to check other days, including Catholic Holy Days of Obligation from all sorts of places (I found the Italian list of Holy Days and Saints Days fascinating). It also allows the installer to “uncheck” holidays.

To get rid of any unwanted holidays, the user has to figure out how to get into that part. It should be accessible in the menu toolbar under “Edit” or “Tools” but each version of Calendar Creator is different. Believe it or not, a lot of people can’t figure their way around this, esp. administrators. Hopefully, your school does not feel the need to celebrate every holiday Calendar Creator has- or all the school time would be spent partying down.

As far as the Latin classes celebrating Saturnalia- as long as there is no oblation to the gods, or wine offerings in grape juice (libation), I think your child is OK. It has a lot of precursors to Christmas, such as gift-giving, as previously explained. If you do not want your child to participate, due to conscience, I think it would be within your rights to find him or her another occupation for that time frame.

 

[cheddarsox]

If it helps any, I hang with lots of pagans and none of them practice Saturnalia. (though they do have a sostice celebration, it has different names and rituals) so really, this sounds like a history lesson.

I took Latin in a Catholic school. And if I were you, I’d be more concerned with the preponderance of mythology (some of it quite sexual and immoral) and war stories. I never understood why the kids who studied other languages got to read about interesting stuff and modern stuff, but all we had were myths and war. Yuck!

We did learn to sing “I’m Popeye the Sailor Man” in Latin. That was cool.

cheddar

 

[spacecadet]

don’t know all the details, but it seems learning about something and making it a part of your Christmas program/celebration are two different things. A Catholic school Christmas program would be one place I would hope to have Christmas celebrated in a Catholic way.

Learning about it in class during the Christmas season, I think would be acceptable, but this program would have my red flags up too. Even if it did become secularized, why does a Catholic school want to secularize a Christmas program? Definately worth a deeper look … maybe speak to a priest?

i agree!

 

[kmktexas]

Ana:

I don’t know all the details, but it seems learning about something and making it a part of your Christmas program/celebration are two different things. A Catholic school Christmas program would be one place I would hope to have Christmas celebrated in a Catholic way.

Learning about it in class during the Christmas season, I think would be acceptable, but this program would have my red flags up too. Even if it did become secularized, why does a Catholic school want to secularize a Christmas program? Definately worth a deeper look … maybe speak to a priest?

This was my big objection too. I don’t mind them learning about the pagan gods and dieties, especially those that were so closely tied to the environment of the early Christians. I just don’t want the kids to be “celebrating” the pagan holiday and I don’t want to “share” Christmas.

 

[fix]

kmktexas:

I wrote the principal and he responded that it was a pagan festival, not a **neo-pagan ** one, no sacrifices would be offered and that it was a way to recognize the early Roman roots of Western culture.

I am curious as to why the distinction between neo pagan and pagan is relevant to the discussion?

 

[Karin]

fix:

I am curious as to why the distinction between neo pagan and pagan is relevant to the discussion?

***Pagan-***somebody who does not acknowledge the God of the Bible, Torah, or Koran

NeoPagan-
modern adherent of pre-Christian religion*:** a believer in a modernized version of the principles of old pre-Christian religions, especially reverence for nature and natural objects rather than worship of a transcendent supreme being
*
See there is a difference…and it matters for this thread topic.

 

[fix]

***Pagan-***somebody who does not acknowledge the God of the Bible, Torah, or Koran

NeoPagan-
modern adherent of pre-Christian religion*:*** a believer in a modernized version of the principles of old pre-Christian religions, especially reverence for nature and natural objects rather than worship of a transcendent supreme being

See there is a difference…and it matters for this thread topic.

**pagan **

**1 **: HEATHEN ****1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)

2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person
3 **: NEO-PAGAN
**: a person who practices a contemporary form of paganism (as Wicca)

I can’t see that the difference really makes it more palatable for the parents and students involved.

 

[kmktexas]

fix:

I am curious as to why the distinction between neo pagan and pagan is relevant to the discussion?

This is the order of events: 1) school send calendar listing “Saturnalia”, 2) I look up Saturnalia and find the definition that includes “neo-pagan”, 3) I write the principal expressing my concern and include the definition I have found, 4) He responds and “corrects” me by saying that it is “pagan” not “neo-pagan”.

I am not sure whether the distinction is supposed to reassure me or not. I feel that both are equally contrary to a Catholic school education (participating in, not necessarily learning about) but the principal seemed to think that they distinction was important to mention to me.

I can’t see that the difference really makes it more palatable for the parents and students involved.

It, in fact, had the opposite effect on me.

 

[fix]

kmktexas:

This is the order of events: 1) school send calendar listing “Saturnalia”, 2) I look up Saturnalia and find the definition that includes “neo-pagan”, 3) I write the principal expressing my concern and include the definition I have found, 4) He responds and “corrects” me by saying that it is “pagan” not “neo-pagan”.

I am not sure whether the distinction is supposed to reassure me or not. I feel that both are equally contrary to a Catholic school education (participating in, not necessarily learning about) but the principal seemed to think that they distinction was important to mention to me.

As the lawyers say, a distinction without a difference. Both are manifestations of the same thing. They can quibble and parse all they want.

As you say, learning about it is fine, celebrating it seems kooky.

 

[CardinalNewman]

I am the Principal in question and since there seems to be some strange alignment of the planets (Saturn?) that has this parent and me on the same obscure weblog, why not explain the issue.

Clearly, pagan or neo-pagan worship is not something that any school needs to do in place of Christmas or at any time. One might study the pagans and their rituals in a class but there is little reason to act out their rituals especially at a Christmas program with little children.

In fact, the program in question is an Advent tradition for us where we sing songs and recite poetry and act out skits. This year we will be acting out the Annunciation and the coming of the three kings. We will sing Veni, Veni, Emmanuel and we will recite some prayers and poems in Latin including Horatius at the bridge. The littlest children might sing jingle bells (arguably our most pagan action of the night). 90% of the actions that night will be Advent or Christmas related.

Still, we are a Latin school, where the study of the roots of western culture is at the root of our mission. We are also orthodox Catholics, but we try to integrate the classics and faith wherever we can. The word Saturnalia will be mentioned once in our program when we talk about the Roman holiday that gave cover to Christmas and we mention the way masters and slaves traded places. Otherwise, Latin will be the only way our kids act like Romans.

I understand why parents have these worries in light of the sad dearth of Catholic piety in Catholic schools these days. Parents have much to fear and have been burned over and over when trusting schools. It is very hard to give faithful Catholic instruction to children, but we are fighting that fight.

In defense of my comment about “actually it is pagan” rather than neo-pagan, that was meant as a tongue-in-cheek joke at the idea that we might be conducting pagan worship. I myself assumed the mom to be making a joke with the neo-pagan comment. Email is often a poor way to convey subtle humor. I am sorry.

Our goal as a school is to introduce each child to the roots of our western culture. We are Romans. We are the children of the unique culture born on the Tiber that ruled the lands of Jesus and his twelve. Our history and government and science as well as our glorious faith were born there. As Catholics and Americans we look with special gratitude to Rome.

I guess we are all skittish about secular (and Catholic) efforts to downplay our Catholic holidays. I doubt anyone who attended last year’s event or the one the year before would worry about our devotion to Christmas. People actually complain that we observe Advent with too much rigor and delay Christmas for after we return from break. I am

Yours in Christ,
Joe
Principal
School X

 

[kmktexas]

Well CAF has done it again!!!

This is 10 times as much information as I was able to obtain from the school directly in three solid (week)days of emailing back and forth.

Not bad for an “obscure weblog”.

Thanks all.

 

[Ferdinand_Mary]

Notice:

Thank you to all those who have participated in this discussion. It appears that resolution has been reached. This thread is now closed.