Saved by faith and works, in a manner of speaking

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Your position is both spiritually precarious and extremely unlikely…

LOOK at the times when Christ corrected or rebuked His Apostles. Especially the number of times He called into doubt there FAITH. Look at the times He rebuked Peter, and the explaination to James and John and their mother who WANTED what God would not give them: seats at His rigt and left in “the kingdom.”
He says to Peter, “you of LITTLE faith”; in one place, but that is not “of NO faith”.
If you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain xxx – and Peter says to the Lame man, “Get up and walk” – and that resting mountain got up and walked.

In one of the “This Rock” magazines, from some years back, an apologetic against there being different “kinds” of faith was succinctly outlined concerning protestant interpretations of the book of James. But by the same token, one can not both accuse protestants of inserting artificial distinctions about faith – and then appeal to their notion when measuring the faith of the twelve. I realize you may not agree with the article, but the thrust of it is that one can not change the meaning of “faith” in the book of James from one sentence to the next within the SAME argumentative paragraph.

Christ does rebuke the Apostles; for mistakes, for being slow and frustrating him, for beginning to stray from the way of Jesus – but the majority of these rebukes can not be taken to mean the apostles were faithless; or guilty of mortal sin.
Nor does your position give correct value and signifiance of those that “GAVE UP EVERYTHING”…NOT to have there own way; NO, but to Follow, learn and Obey God.
How do you mean? The pharisee I am remarking about, in De Maria’s example, is not an apostle of christ. How does my position about a non-apostle who has not given up everything – affect the position of those who have?
Were there Bible support of this being true; SURELY it would have been identified in order to give evidence to US of God’s Mercy, Forgiveness and Love.
May I humbly suggest you give your position careful and prayerful consideration.
God Bless,
Pat
Well, Pat, the quote mechanism in attempting to reply – has divorced your request about the BIBLE support from whatever it was that I said which triggered your request. Could you clarify your request regarding what it is you would like, or what it is you think I said and what it means to you? I’d be happy to oblige you in a response.

Your brother in Christ,
–Andrew.
 
These may be useful:

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0303sbs.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9710chap.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909chap.asp

Since the OP is about a canon, these are also important:

BOOK I
GENERAL NORMS

Can. 1 The canons of this Code concern only the latin Church.
…
Can. 17 Ecclesiastical laws are to be understood according to the proper meaning of the words considered in their text and context. If the meaning remains doubtful or obscure, there must be recourse to parallel places, if there be any, to the purpose and circumstances of the law, and to the mind of the legislator.

Can. 18 Laws which prescribe a penalty, or restrict the free exercise of rights, or contain an exception to the law, are to be interpreted strictly.

…
Can. 27 Custom is the best interpreter of laws.
…

Which means that regarding the actual prohibitions written into the canons, one must not make assumptions about the meaning of words – but must adhere to explicit definitions and to examine custom.

The teaching of Trent, I just re-read, is not actually a canon – but a declaration. So, De. Maria’s attempt to interpret the passage isn’t as restricted as I originally thought: I re-read the context to clarify my own understanding and:.
The entire passage, in a typical translation, reads:
CHAPTER VIII.
In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and gratuitously. And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.
The “perpetual consent of the Catholic Church” refer’s to other statements; so one must be able to synthesize Trent’s statement from constant church teaching – otherwise, the interpretation of the passage is novel.

The declaration interprets the writing of Paul, who is explicitly defining faith to be the beginning of salvation; “Cause=faith”. It is the “root” of all justification;
Hence, I re-assert that I do not think it possible to be justified before and without faith; although one may increase in justification after faith; but at no time, before during or after a justification – can the actions of the person be said to MERIT or EARN the initial justification itself;

Faith – believing in christ – is the introduction to Jesus of the non-believer; I say this from studying the words of Pope John Paul II; and not in reference to study of the earlier church; – however, in my eyes; no one can be introduced to Jesus unless he himself is available to the person; This, in my eyes, is the root reason that faith can not be earned – for no one has the right to demand the presence of Jesus without him first condescending to an agreement to be introduced. He owes no one an audience; but gives that audience freely.

There are many ways one can be introduced to Christ, the normal way being baptism – which itself is called the sacrament of “Faith”; for in it even a child, who performing no work of their own – receives the work of the Parents, their family the church, in being introduced passively and experientially to Christ through the sacrament itself. They come to know Christ, albeit immaturely, in baptism and especially they receive the Holy Spirit who communicates for them and with them to God in groanings that they themselves would not otherwise know how to utter.

But I do not see how, given that Grace itself is not a unilateral gift – but rather a gift and response, which already implies a relationship in two directions – that it is possible to separate faith entirely from justification. For Justification is friendship – and all friendships begin with an introduction of persons.

It is for this reason, that no matter how imperfect – or how “small” – or immature the relationship – that the moment the grace of Faith is imparted, so is the relationship – and the justification. If I have overlooked some possibility that is evident in church history – I humbly ask someone to point it out.

I find in John 6:28 the simultaneous affirmation that faith itself is a “work” – a work of God, since God must be present in order to be a friend to the sinner – and a work of the sinner for they must DO the act of faith in befriending their Lord; whether it be by simple passivity in the case of an infant – or in active conformance of their life and their ways to Jesus Christ in the case of an adult; none the less – they must not thwart the work which is theirs to do in this relationship.

There are multiple perspectives, permitted within the Catholic Tradition, as to the nature of the interaction which is faith; grace; and persistance; Whether one is Molinist or Thomist was not to be settled by Trent; and any reading of Trent which excludes one or the other view can’t be said to follow the custom of the church which is to condemn neither of these viewpoints.

I hope this last commentary will be useful to your discussion, De Maria. For it will perhaps extract the conversation from a mere technical regurgitation of definitions – and bring about a fruitful discussion of their internal logic.

Peace to you,
Your brother in Christ, Jesus,
–Andrew.
 
=Huiou Theou;8314328]He says to Peter, “you of LITTLE faith”; in one place, but that is not “of NO faith”.
If you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain xxx – and Peter says to the Lame man, “Get up and walk” – and that resting mountain got up and walked.
In one of the “This Rock” magazines, from some years back, an apologetic against there being different “kinds” of faith was succinctly outlined concerning protestant interpretations of the book of James. But by the same token, one can not both accuse protestants of inserting artificial distinctions about faith – and then appeal to their notion when measuring the faith of the twelve. I realize you may not agree with the article, but the thrust of it is that one can not change the meaning of “faith” in the book of James from one sentence to the next within the SAME argumentative paragraph.
Christ does rebuke the Apostles; for mistakes, for being slow and frustrating him, for beginning to stray from the way of Jesus – but the majority of these rebukes can not be taken to mean the apostles were faithless; or guilty of mortal sin.
How do you mean? The pharisee I am remarking about, in De Maria’s example, is not an apostle of christ. How does my position about a non-apostle who has not given up everything – affect the position of those who have?
Well, Pat, the quote mechanism in attempting to reply – has divorced your request about the BIBLE support from whatever it was that I said which triggered your request. Could you clarify your request regarding what it is you would like, or what it is you think I said and what it means to you? I’d be happy to oblige you in a response.
Your brother in Christ,
–Andrew.
I don’t recall EVER saying that Peter or any of the Apostles had “NO FAITH” rather that they lacked SUFFICIENT FAITH and with it, at times, RIGHT Understanding. It was insufficient that they “had Faith” when what was REQUIRED for the task and responsibilities given to them was an Extrodinary Faith.

Blessed as they were to not ONLY see Christ mircales BUT also able to through Christ perform there “own”, and being granted ALL of the Graces offered to them… Christ continaully preached the need for “more faith.”…Luke.9: 1 “And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases,”

God Bless,
Pat
 
The way I look at faith and works is basically based on the words of Jesus:

Your faith has saved you (your sins are forgiven thee), go and sin (transgress Gods eternal unchangeable Law) no more.

The Israelites were saved out of Egypt (grace, the unmerited favour of God) and THEN God gave them His holy eternal Commandments and told them to keep His Commandments (i.e, go and sin no more).

We are saved by grace, for free, simply by believing. We receive The Holy Spirit for free and Jesus then works out His perfect life in us (=sanctification) and we become changed from Commandment breakers not compatible with Heaven, to being Commandment keepers, safe to take to Heaven on that great and glorious ressurection day at our Lords soon return.
 
=Creation43 The way I look at faith and works is basically based on the words of Jesus:
Your faith has saved you (your sins are forgiven thee), go and sin (transgress Gods eternal unchangeable Law) no more.
The Israelites were saved out of Egypt (grace, the unmerited favor of God) and THEN God gave them His holy eternal Commandments and told them to keep His Commandments (i.e, go and sin no more).
We are saved by grace, for free, simply by believing. We receive The Holy Spirit for free and Jesus then works out His perfect life in us (=sanctification) and we become changed from Commandment breakers not compatible with Heaven, to being Commandment keepers, safe to take to Heaven on that great and glorious ressurection day at our Lords soon return.
My dear friend in Christ;

What you adhere to is a common but false and very incomplete understanding of the Divine Nature of God; how and why God created us precisely as he did, and the result of “Human-engineering” of the Gospel. There is and logically can be “only One truth” per issue. Sadly you do not yet posess it.

Space will prohibit a detailed response, so if you desire more evidence of what I am sharing send me a Private Message.

Usually when I quote the bible I include the passage for easy reference but space will not permit me to do so this time.
  1. God did not automatically forgive sins in the OT; God used priest as He does today but then in a less significant role. READ Lev.4: 20,26, 31 and Lev. 6:7
  2. Of all of God’s created THINGS only Humanity alone has what is necessary to “Love”. **Isaiah 43: 7, 21 **combined with the First Commandment prove this reality.
  3. “Go and sin no more” is by itself the explanation in summary form; the very reason that OSAS cannot be even a possibility, much less a reality. Because man can sis; man DOES sin. And while Christian Baptism solves the past history of our sins; it has little effect on our future sins. **READ 1 Jn.1: 8-10 and 1 Jn. 5:16-17. … **You presume in grave error that sin “cannot exist; is not committed by those who are blessed “to Know who God is, or even the Baptized.” … Knowledge of God is in no manner, way, shape or form the same as “salvation” and a magic shield that prevents all further sin, which I understand is the common non-Catholic [and unbiblical] position. That is simply some mans personal concept; certainly NOT God’s.
  4. Christ came to and did accomplish Redemption for ALL; but, this is a separate issue from Salvation. “Redemption” references the imitative of God’s Grace that is a pre-requirement for Faith, and in addition it unlocked again the gate of heaven [to which Christ gave Saint peter the key], and makes heaven once again a possibility.
  5. The Bible is replete with evidence of the possibility of sin, and the warning to seek reconciliation through true repentance combined with a FIRM [serious] commitment to alter our life style that leads us to sin, even after we have come to "believe."
  6. **Christ Himself has commanded how sin WILL BE FORGIVEN **now that we live “under grace” and no-longer under the OT Laws. NOTE: The Commandments are not only still valid; they are NOW 10 categories of sin [because of grace] and not ONLY 10 possible sins. [Making sin even MORE Likely!]
  7. Jesus Himself instituted the Seven Sacraments for our POSSIBLE salvation. Conditional on their use, and our access through them of the necessary Graces to Fight Satan.
  8. Four Sacraments in particular apply to humanities POSSIBLE Salvation. 1. Christian Baptism which removed BOTH all of our Prior-existing sins as well as there necessary “pay-back” issues. 2. Confession/ Reconciliation of our sins to a Catholic priest [John 20:19-23] who does not forgive our sins BUT is required by Christ to GRANT permission to God so that He does as asked by His priest. [LOOK IT UP] 3. Eucharist which is Catholic Holy Communion; the single GREATEST source of Grace available to humanity; [Because it REALLY is Jesus Himself], precisely because God desires our salvation; knows FULL- WELL the presence, power, and influence of Satan, and that this GRACE is the most effective tool available to us to win the war we are engaged in with Satan. THAT ONE CAN NO-LONGER SIN IS SATAN’S MOST EFFECTIVE TOOL, and is based on PRIDE. 4. Confirmation where we Do receive the assistance of the Holy Spirit; BUT this too is not a shield from sin; but a sword with which we MAY freely choose to fight our natural tendencies to sin with God’s assistance.
Wish I could share more,

God Bless you
Pat
 
I don’t recall EVER saying that Peter or any of the Apostles had “NO FAITH” rather that they lacked SUFFICIENT FAITH and with it, at times, RIGHT Understanding. It was insufficient that they “had Faith” when what was REQUIRED for the task and responsibilities given to them was an Extrodinary Faith.

Blessed as they were to not ONLY see Christ mircales BUT also able to through Christ perform there “own”, and being granted ALL of the Graces offered to them… Christ continaully preached the need for “more faith.”…Luke.9: 1 “And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases,”

God Bless,
Pat
😃

In the Catholic tradition there are two kinds of sins; venial and mortal.
If their faith is insufficient, being as even a microscopic amount is sufficient – then I would have to say there was a mortal sin which made it insufficient; in the case of the Devil this is easily understood – but in the case of the SAINTS, it isn’t so easy to understand.

What do you mean that their FAITH was insufficient??? I see no place where “Extraordinary” faith is required; but Jesus himself was AMAZED when he came across extraordinary faith: “Sir I am not worthy to receive you under my roof; but only say the word and my SERVANT will be healed.”

I might agree that their faith was imperfect, or unperfected, but I have a difficult time agreeing with the insufficiency idea. Since justification is a process that Grows, I can even believe that “faith” grows and is how one gets to know Christ BETTER.

I am interested a bit more in what you deem sufficient, and insufficient FOR WHAT.
Peter said to the paralytic, “what I do have I give you”, and he said something close to “In the name of Jesus Christ, stand up and walk”.

On the water, Peter walked, and Jesus asked when he began to sink – “why did you falter?” – but at the same time, Peter demonstrated SUFFICIENT faith (to my eyes) by saying “Lord, Save me!”

indulge me in a little wider view of your thought. 🙂
 
  1. The Bible is replete with evidence of the possibility of sin, and the warning to seek reconciliation through true repentance combined with a FIRM [serious] commitment to alter our life style that leads us to sin, even after we have come to “believe.”
  2. Christ Himself has commanded how sin WILL BE FORGIVEN now that we live “under grace” and no-longer under the OT Laws. NOTE: The Commandments are not only still valid; they are NOW 10 categories of sin [because of grace] and not ONLY 10 possible sins. [Making sin even MORE Likely!]
Hello,

firstly, thankyou for your thoughts. You are apparently the first person who has actually even noticed me. These points you made which I have reproduced here, I completely agree with. I am new to these forums and the rules said to keep the posts brief so I tried to be brief. Perhaps at the expense of clarity. It looks like people are quite practised at clear and concise communications in these forums. I didn’t want to get myself needlessly into trouble my going on too long and getting told off for it.
 
=Huiou Theou:D
On the water, Peter walked, and Jesus asked when he began to sink – “why did you falter?” – but at the same time, Peter demonstrated SUFFICIENT faith (to my eyes) by saying “Lord, Save me!”
indulge me in a little wider view of your thought. 🙂
THANKS for responding.

*For ordinary folks like me and you “sufficient” faith MY BE sufficient. I’ve been doing a series of lessons * for my mail-out on the Gospel of Matthew. I was surprised to find a rather consistant “lack of in God view” sufficient faith on behalf of the Apostles… here’s a sample of what I’m talikuing about. BUT first I DO understand that they are being prepped for the task that lies ahead of them; and Christ wants to BE SURE that when he has Risen from the dead; that they will be spiritually stron enough to endre all that he will ask of them. This Faith goes WAY beyond that needed for ones personal slavation; and is an extrodinary requirement of the task given to them.

Mt. 5:23 23 And when he got into the boat, his disciples followed him. And behold, there arose a great storm on the sea, so that the boat was being swamped by the waves; but he was asleep. And they went and woke him, saying, “Save, Lord; we are perishing.” And he said to them, “Why are you afraid, O men of little faith?”

Mt. 10: 1 1 And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.

And this [Ch 14] takes place immediately following the multiplication of the loafs and fishes

Mt. 14: . But when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were terrified, saying, “It is a ghost!” And they cried out for fear. But immediately he spoke to them, saying, “Take heart, it is I; have no fear.” And Peter answered him, “Lord, if it is you, bid me come to you on the water.” He said, “Come.” So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water and came to Jesus; but when he saw the wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out, “Lord, save me.”

Peteres responce here is not faith its FRIGHT!

Mt. 17: 1 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light.

And again Immediately after they have yet another miraculous sign, they are called to task because of a lack of faith…

17 And Jesus answered, “O faithless and perverse generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him here to me.” And Jesus rebuked him, and the demon came out of him, and the boy was cured instantly. Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?” ** He said to them, “Because of your little faith**. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, `Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.”

These are NOT rebukes; they areTRAINING and conditioning.🙂

For those of us called to share and teach our faith; bcause God has blessed us with more as he did with the Apostles he has every right to expect more from them and us. That my friend is the point I was trying to make.😉

God Bless you,
Pat**
 
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