Saved by grace through faith and works (help me defend it)

[GandalfTheWhite]

Hello,

I got into a discussion about Catholicism and we started discussing several topics. Now, naturally one of them was regarding justification and salvation. He holds that to the protestant sola fide (at least I think he does) and I pointed him to several passages in the Bible such as those by James that explicitly state that Faith without works is of no use to us. In response he pointed out these verses:

Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Chapter of Romans 4 and 5. **
**
Phil 1:28-29
without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God. For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,

He claim that if we are Justified, we go to heaven. God works in us (which of course he does). It’s because of Him we do good things. He also says that the Church is misinterpreting these verses because if she is not, then these verses are contradicting each other. He claims that if we for example understand James 2 as if speaking faith=knowledge then we will have no problem. To support this he mentioned the comparison to devils (even the devil believes).

So, how would you deal with this issue. How would you answer it and explain it? I have always struggled with this part of Catholic teaching (not in the sense that I wouldn’t believe in it but in the sense that I know that I don’t fully understand it myself) - mainly not knowing how to explain the verses that deal (according to protestants) with faith only.

Thank you beforehand!

Pax Christi
:tiphat:
**
PS: I’m not asking for a debate on this topic from any of our protestant brothers on this site. We already have threads for discussing that so if they feel they have something to say, they can post it there. This is a thread to help me defend it. Cheers**

 

[promethius95945]

Your friend is right and wrong in a sense. The catholic belief has never been that our good works lead to our salvation. The catholic belief is:

We are saved by grace,
which comes through faith
which is brought to life by good works
and those are brought about by christian love and charity

I liken it to a story I read in “one minute wisdom” and have paraphrased here.

A man approached the master and asked what he needed to do for salvation.
The master told him, “There are two things you must do… First, you must realize that nothing you do, none of your works, can warrant your salvation.”
“And what is the second?” Replied the man.
The master smiled, “You must behave as though you did not know the first.”

 

[Kitty_Chan]

I sometimes wonder if this isnt splitting hairs or whatever one wants to call it. terminology isnt the same but the end meaning is.

As a non catholic, When I accepted Christ technically I dont have to do anything. But practically it doesnt work. There is a thing called “growth” we are encouraged to grow. And in growth starts works. Which follows the master story.

Anyone who is saved and sits around and does nothing slips away and forgets all about it. The seed that didnt grow.

I really think each is closer to the same page but the problem is no one wants to read the others book.

 

[Cari]

All these words set my head to spinning. That “justification”, for instance. Is this person equating “justification” with “salvation”?

The Catholic Encyclopedia says this about justification:

A biblio-ecclesiastical term; which denotes the transforming of the sinner from the state of unrighteousness to the state of holiness and sonship of God. Considered as an act (actus justificationis), justification is the work of God alone, presupposing, however, on the part of the adult the process of justification and the cooperation of his free will with God’s preventing and helping grace (gratia praeveniens et cooperans). Considered as a state or habit (habitus justificationis), it denotes the continued possession of a quality inherent in the soul, which theologians aptly term sanctifying grace. Since the sixteenth century great differences have existed between Protestants and Catholics regarding the true nature of justification.

And this to day about salvation:

As sin is the greatest evil, being the root and source of all evil, Sacred Scripture uses the word “salvation” mainly in the sense of liberation of the human race or of individual man from sin and its consequences.

So obviously, one can be justified, but still sin, which would mean salvation hadn’t been achieved yet. But only if you accept these definitions, which he might not.

And I’m not sure why he’s bringing up:

Phil 1:28-29
without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God. For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,

, since that seems to completely discount his view. It says that you “WILL BE” saved, not you “ARE” saved. Yes, it is God who grants us salvation, but, if you go on to read the passage, it says that salvation has been given to those who not only believe on him, but also “suffer for him”. That sounds pretty much like a work to me.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Thank you

Now, how you you address those passages in particular? How would you explain him the meaning to show him that the passages don’t support his point of view?

Pax

 

[Fidelis]

I sometimes wonder if this isnt splitting hairs or whatever one wants to call it. terminology isnt the same but the end meaning is.

As a non catholic, When I accepted Christ technically I dont have to do anything. But practically it doesnt work. There is a thing called “growth” we are encouraged to grow. And in growth starts works. Which follows the master story.

Anyone who is saved and sits around and does nothing slips away and forgets all about it. The seed that didnt grow.

I really think each is closer to the same page but the problem is no one wants to read the others book.

I know you’re not trying to start an argument, but are just expressing the view that you as Protestant hold, so I’m not attacking you or anything.

And what you say, from the Catholic perspective, is true, as far as it goes. However, to a Catholic this would look like “easy-belivism” – the idea that once we accept Christ, all we need to too is sit back, call in once and a while, and just wait to go to heaven. Maybe we’ll do good works once in a while because we believe it is bad form for a Christian do not do so, or because we know it’s good for us in growing in holiness, but ultimately it makes no difference if we do or not. And the logical extension of this pertains to avoiding sin. We should avoid sin, of course, but if we don’t – oh, well!

Then Catholics would point out that the New Testament – that was written *specifically *to Christians, i.e., those who presumably are saved, is positively FILLED with commands to avoid sin and to do good. Not just exhoratations, but commands. What would be the point if it makes little difference what we do or don’t do?

And there’s the matter of Matthew 24, the Great Throne Judgment. Those before Christ are judged entirely on their deeds.Faith is not even mentioned. What do we do with clear passages such as these?

 

[Kitty_Chan]

I know you’re not trying to start an argument, but are just expressing the view that you as Protestant hold, so I’m not attacking you or anything.

Thanks just frusterated at lack of unity. not just with Catholics, Protestants, but Baptists, Pentacostals, Catholic Orthodox is it? I dont know pick a bunch Thank you again for recognising that, you blessed me and gave me hope.

And what you say, from the Catholic perspective, is true, as far as it goes. However, to a Catholic this would look like “easy-belivism” – the idea that once we accept Christ, all we need to too is sit back, call in once and a while, and just wait to go to heaven. Maybe we’ll do good works once in a while because we believe it is bad form for a Christian do not do so, or because we know it’s good for us in growing in holiness, but ultimately it makes no difference if we do or not. And the logical extension of this pertains to avoiding sin. We should avoid sin, of course, but if we don’t – oh, well!

Thats why I mentioned the seeds and how they grew, I think that parable is true for all believers. Catholic or Protestant. These ones you speak of that “sit around” Id have to guess are that way in their life. And have used scripture to support their lazy ways. I could never sit around and God makes it clear I shouldnt. Look at the parable of the servants thats clear enough.

The throne judgement is why so many witness, go on missions they want to be found busy when the Lord returns, He should come and we have to say "Oh what? Oh hang on a sec, just busy here, how can I help you . . . oHHHH Youre here!

So I totally agree, we should be found busy when He returns.

As for the lazy ones, well empty drums make the most noise. Perhaps they are some of the ones who will hear, “I dont know you”

Because of what Christ did on the cross and bothered to save a wretch like me. Propells me to want to do all I can to please Him. Growth of that seed. Too busy for that easy-belivism (I like that)

then again maybe Im a weird protestant. . . .

 

[Fidelis]

Thanks just frusterated at lack of unity. not just with Catholics, Protestants, but Baptists, Pentacostals, Catholic Orthodox is it? I dont know pick a bunch Thank you again for recognising that, you blessed me and gave me hope.

Thats why I mentioned the seeds and how they grew, I think that parable is true for all believers. Catholic or Protestant. These ones you speak of that “sit around” Id have to guess are that way in their life. And have used scripture to support their lazy ways. I could never sit around and God makes it clear I shouldnt. Look at the parable of the servants thats clear enough.

The throne judgement is why so many witness, go on missions they want to be found busy when the Lord returns, He should come and we have to say "Oh what? Oh hang on a sec, just busy here, how can I help you . . . oHHHH Youre here!

So I totally agree, we should be found busy when He returns.

As for the lazy ones, well empty drums make the most noise. Perhaps they are some of the ones who will hear, “I dont know you”

Because of what Christ did on the cross and bothered to save a wretch like me. Propells me to want to do all I can to please Him. Growth of that seed. Too busy for that easy-belivism (I like that)

then again maybe Im a weird protestant. . . .

Very well said, and I understand where you’re coming from. I personally think while some of those you mentioned will be “lazy ones” many more will be those who have been taught that there will be no consequences to not responding to the Holy Spirit’s promptings to do good and avoid evil. Many of these will hear those awful words of our Lord:

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (Matthew 25:41-46)

Anyway, thanks for your gracious reply.

 

[Nagoda]

Theres a great site on the net… I think its called scripturecatholic? Anyways it talks about the Catholic concept of justification. We are not justified by faith alone (sola fide is a good start but it doesnt go far enough), but rather we are justified by faith AND the love of God.

 

[teachccd]

I liken it to a story I read in “one minute wisdom” and have paraphrased here.

A man approached the master and asked what he needed to do for salvation.
The master told him, “There are two things you must do… First, you must realize that nothing you do, none of your works, can warrant your salvation.”
“And what is the second?” Replied the man.
The master smiled, “You must behave as though you did not know the first.”

Very thought provoking…teachccd

 

[rtconstant]

Just wanted to say this is a great thread. Both Catholics and Protestants are making thought provoking posts. I’ve learned some different perspectives. Keep up the good work!

…no pun intended

 

[Pax]

There is a bright young apologist on this forum named Antonius Lupus. In another thread he answered your question in the following fashion:

Paul’s works of Law vs. James Works

Per Antonius Lupus CAF

When St. Paul says "salvation by faith apart from works he is not excluding all works. Often times St. Paul speaks of the works of Torah. (Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16) You must understand that the Jewish people never believed that one could earn God’s love by following the Torah. Rather they believed that they were chosen by Yahweh’s grace and the works of Torah were their response to that relationship. The problem is that the works of Torah had no salvific value. Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. How do I know this? The proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law. St. James writing in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.”

Rather St. James uses “ergois agathois” which is a totally different word with accompanied conotations. Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired and inerrant word of God. We have been saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10), not because of “works,” lest anyone boast. This much-quoted verse by refers to the “works” of the Mosaic law or any works performed in a legalistic sense, where we view God as a debtor to us, and not as our heavenly Father. St. Paul is teaching us that, with the coming of Christ, we are now saved by grace through faith, not by Mosaic or legal works, works that give us a knowledge of sin, but don’t provide a way out of sin.

The only way that our good works can “work out our salvation” (Philippians 2:12) is if they are done in faith. St. Paul shows us this in Romans 9:30-33—

30: What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith;
31: but that Israel who pursued the righteousness which is based on law did not succeed in fulfilling that law.
32: Why? Because they did not pursue it through faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33: as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make men stumble, a rock that will make them fall; and he who believes in him will not be put to shame.”

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Very well said, and I understand where you’re coming from. I personally think while some of those you mentioned will be “lazy ones” many more will be those who have been taught that there will be no consequences to not responding to the Holy Spirit’s promptings to do good and avoid evil. Many of these will hear those awful words of our Lord:

Anyway, thanks for your gracious reply.

Well, for reference Ive never been told there would be no consequences, I dont know maybe I had better pastors?? Or its a regional or country thing?? Or I just ignored it cause it didnt make sense seriously, I havent heard the osas in person told to me. So the whole thing sorta fasinates me. I guess Im “Catholic Lite” on this issue

Because your right there is consequences, and if you ignore things all your life, well lets just say, you wont have to be “sent” you will have put yourself in the door of the elevator to the bargain bsmt.

At this moment I remember a charasmatic preacher (woman) and she spoke about serving the Lord with all your being, and was huge on works. Sorry just thinking about this twigged my mind. So I dont know maybe this osas is only in particular denominations ???