Say something nice about Assured Salvation :)

[thessalonian]

I was listening to Curtis Martin yesterday on some tapes on parenting my wife gave me. He was talking about how Evangelization in the Catholic context is supposed to look for what is true in the beliefs of the one we wish to convert and use that to help them come to the fullness of the truth in the Catholic faith. With that in mind I have a little exercise I want to try.

Say something good about the belief of Assured Salvation.

I will start it out. Those who believe in Assured Salvation, like we Catholics, recognize that salvation is through trusting in Christ alone. Praise God for this.

 

[Matt16_18]

There is nothing nice that can be said about heresy. God despises heresy.

 

[thessalonian]

Matt16_18:

There is nothing nice that can be said about heresy. God despises heresy.

You miss the point. Sola Scriptura is not total heresy. It is truth mixed with error. We are to recognize what is true. Read Acts 17 where Paul went in to the Aeropogus in Athens and used the shrine to the unkwown God as a leverage point to convert the Athenians. A priest came to our parish a few years back from New Guinea, where as late as the 1940’s canabalism was still widespread. (how would you like an assignment there). He said the people of New Guinea were easy to convert because they readily accepted the Eucharist.

St. Francis was the greatest at using this evangelization method, converting nearly 1 million people by learning their language and culture and then looking for truth in it. God has implanted his laws on all men’s hearts. The spririt blows where it may. Do not deny it.

Blessings

 

[adnauseum]

I think I understand what you are saying.

From my understanding of St. Thomas Aquinas, I suspect he might say that one may indeed receive the divine virtue of Hope, which gives you divine guidance in your state of “being on the way” or status viatoris.

And it is a wonderful earthly virtue to hope for your salvation, even to wish it so much that you want to know now, right now! Surely a merciful father will smile upon a child who is so impatient.

But hope taken to the extreme, without the requisite humility, fear and trembling, of working out one’s salvation day by day becomes sinful; it’s a sin we call presumption.

So to answer your question, I would say that assurance of salvation is beautiful, seen as the striving of a young child who has not learned the depth of spirit we are called to in humility; because true humility will instantly dissolve presumption.

My thoughts, anyway.

 

[Pax]

I am as strong an opponent of the errant teaching of OSAS that you will find anywhere, but you make a terrific point. OSAS believers are our separated brothers and sisters in Christ. We would truly damage our opportunities to share our faith with them if we do not give recognition to the common ground that we do have. I had an OSAS friend of mine attack the Catholic faith and I began my discussions with him from the angle of our common ground. He and I have remained good friends with mutual Christian love and respect. His opinion of Catholics as “unsaved” has changed and he is much more receptive to seeing the truth and the good that is contained within the Church.

We are ambassadors of the faith. Paul addressed the Athenians with respect concerning their religiosity and their tribute to their “unknown god” as a way of introducing them to the truth. We must act similarly.

None of this means that we water down the truth. Our common ground also points to the differences, and these differences must be articulated honestly and respectfully but without compromise. In the past, I have been guilty of turning off the listener because of my methods of over confident expression, and my tendency to appear as if I simply wish to prove the other party wrong.

A gracious, loving, and patient approach has always proven more effective for me. I still need to work on these techniques and pray for grace in this regard because it is very easy to become victimized by my emotions. Even when the other side blasts us with anti-catholic bigoted rhetoric, it serves no purpose to respond in kind or with any edge in our voice. It is better that we suffer in humility and only return the love that Jesus would offer in return.

 

[thessalonian]

Perhaps this from Redemptoris Missio by JP II on Evangelization will help. I highly recommend the whole document:

vatican.va/holy_father/j…-missio_en.html

The Spirit Is Present and Active in Every Time and Place

1. The Spirit manifests himself in a special way in the Church and in her members. Nevertheless, his presence and activity are universal, limited neither by space nor time.35 The Second Vatican Council recalls that the Spirit is at work in the heart of every person, through the “seeds of the Word,” to be found in human initiatives-including religious ones-and in mankind’s efforts to attain truth, goodness and God himself.36

The Spirit offers the human race" the light and strength to respond to its highest calling"; through the Spirit, “mankind attains in faith to the contemplation and savoring of the mystery of God’s design”; indeed, "we are obliged to hold that the Holy Spirit offers everyone the possibility of sharing in the Paschal Mystery in a manner known to God."37 The Church “is aware that humanity is being continually stirred by the Spirit of God and can therefore never be completely indifferent to the problems of religion” and that "people will always…want to know what meaning to give their life, their activity and their death."38 The Spirit, therefore, is at the very source of man’s existential and religious questioning, a questioning which is occasioned not only by contingent situations but by the very structure of his being.39

The Spirit’s presence and activity affect not only the individuals but also society and history, peoples, cultures and religions. Indeed, the Spirit is at the origin of the noble ideals and undertakings which benefit humanity on its journey through history: "The Spirit of God with marvelous foresight directs the course of the ages and renews the face of the earth."40 The risen Christ "is now at work in human hearts through the strength of his Spirit, not only instilling a desire for the world to come but also thereby animating, purifying and reinforcing the noble aspirations which drive the human family to make its life one that is more human and to direct the whole earth to this end."41 Again, it is the Spirit who sows the “seeds of the Word” present in various customs and cultures, preparing them for full maturity in Christ.42

See next post

 

[thessalonian]

1. Thus the Spirit, who “blows where he wills” (cf. Jn 3:8), who "was already at work in the world before Christ was glorified,"43 and who “has filled the world,…holds all things together [and] knows what is said” (Wis 1:7), leads us to broaden our vision in order to ponder his activity in every time and place.44 I have repeatedly called this fact to mind, and it has guided me in my meetings with a wide variety of peoples. The Church’s relationship with other religions is dictated by a twofold respect: "Respect for man in his quest for answers to the deepest questions of his life, and respect for the action of the Spirit in man."45 Excluding any mistaken interpretation, the interreligious meeting held in Assisi was meant to confirm my conviction that "every authentic prayer is prompted by the Holy Spirit, who is mysteriously present in every human heart."46

 

[thessalonian]

By the way, for anyone who thinks I am soft on assured salvation, I called the doctrine of OSAS abhorent in another thread. We can have a pure clean bucket of water and add a teaspoon of water from a toilet and we most certainly would not drink it. Yet we can still see through the water to the bottom of the bucket.

 

[jpusateri]

Boy this isn’t easy.

Here goes:

The theological virtue of Hope represents a trust in God for Salvation. Assured Salvation can be looked at as an aspect of this trust. God covenantally promises us salvation. And we can trust God to keep his word. Thus salvation is assured.

There is great consolation in knowing the Lord is faithful.

 

[Matt16_18]

thessalonian:

You miss the point. Sola Scriptura is not total heresy.

The doctrine of Sola Scriptura is heresy. The doctrine that scripture is authoritative is NOT heresy – it is the “Sola” part that is the heresy, not the “Scriptura” part. Scripture is authoritative, but it is not the *sole * authority.

If you want to say that Protestantism is a mixture of truth and heresy, I won’t argue that point.

PAX:

OSAS believers are our separated brothers and sisters in Christ. We would truly damage our opportunities to share our faith with them if we do not give recognition to the common ground that we do have.

Indeed, even among Satan worshippers we can find something in common if we look hard enough. There are thousands of Protestant sects, and there isn’t a one that teaches all falsehood. The spiritual truths that Protestants teach are the spiritual truths that they received from the Catholic Church. Catholics cannot denigrate these spiritual truths without denigrating the teaching of their own Church! All this is clearly taught in the Vatican II document, DECREE ON ECUMENISM - UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO :… men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church- whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church–do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.

Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.

The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.

 

[thessalonian]

Matt16:18, Wrong thread, there are two.

I agree with your post. The point of the thread is merely to approach the problem from a different direction of commonality. I include in their doctrine of Sola Scriptura their high regard for scripture (not just that it is sola which is false) because that is the basis for the doctrine. If it is not a part of the doctrine then sue me.