Scenic plays... and kissing. Script required

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chevalier

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As always, I seem to be bringing up a controversial subject. More like looking for a hole in a whole as we say around the place where I live. I just seem to have a habit of pinning down even accepted social traditions which don’t get along well with my vision of morality. But perhaps it’s just vision. Anyway, on to the subject.

Kissing required in stage plays by the script. I’m not talking about simple pecks you would give to friends or even strangers on a good day. I’m talking about Romeo and Juliet style kissing or Sleeping Beauty style of kissing.

It seems to have been tradition in schools. No one seems to mind. But how does it happen? A teacher picks a girl and a guy and tells them to kiss. So they enact the Big French of Romeo and Juliet or she lies down and he leans over, Sleeping Beauty style.

Yesterday, I talked to a Christian lady who didn’t have a problem with that. First, she was claiming it was sweet and innocent. Next, she switched to claiming it was required by the plot and wasn’t in the hearts of the actors – but pondering the best kiss of them all somewhat later pretty much defeats the “not in hearts” argument. Ultimately, she would claim that kissing isn’t a sin or that it was required and she had no choice. I raised that she could always have quit. She replied the teacher would have picked another girl, so what point?

I don’t understand what’s the point of respecting women if they allow themselves to be “taken” like that by guys they don’t even know or like, let alone love. I don’t complain about things people do with those they love. I probably wouldn’t complain about playing such scenarios with a boyfriend/girlfriend (depending on one’s own opposite gender, of course) or even a very good non-romantic friend, but for decency’s sake… A class-mate picked by the teacher?

In my view, the teachers who do that commit a crime. I would never allow my daughter to do something like that and I would sue the school and launch a criminal proceeding against the teacher in question if it had already happened.

The argument “but that was highschool” doesn’t work, either, unless to the effect opposite from intended. Children need to be protected more and they are way farther from even considering marriage, so their activities need to be somehow limited and supervised.

I asked what if the script required removing some clothing or doing something sexual. The answer I got was that it was different from plain kissing. Come on. The difference is in degree only, not in substance. I would even say that stripping for a movie is less personal than kissing – after all, one doesn’t actually do anything with anyone else and shame goes to him who has impure thougths (however, one of my friends who is a church animator disagreed, placing kissing – even open-mouth french-kissing – below nudity).

I’m not making a poll of this because I don’t want to cheapen it by a contest of votes whichever way, let alone questions about questions cutting the thread in pieces. However, I would ask for well-thought answers, preferably in length.
 
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My daughter had the female lead in the high school play last year when she was a junior. There was a scene where the male lead had to kiss her. At rehearsal, he put his tongue way down her throat. This was in front of the teachers, etc… She was mortified. Came home in tears.

I called the teacher in charge. Although he was present while this happened, he had no clue. And the kid who kissed her, didn’t really think he was doing anything wrong. He had just seen this so much in the movies and on tv.

We handled this by having the teacher speak with the young man. This same student also apologized to my daughter. It was weird for her for about a week. But after that, the dust settled and all was fine.

I didn’t think we needed to go to war over this. There was no malice intended. My daughter today remains friends with this young man.
 
We don’t need to go to war? But… is it proper to do something like that? What point keeping sexually chaste if even the kisses which are supposed to be reserved for someone you love (contrary to sex which people have as a means of simply releasing tension nowadays)? What point respecting a woman if she allows herself to be kissed by a stranger or a mere acquaintance or classmate just because it’s in the script?

I can understand that some things happen without people wanting (like the tongue in throat in your example). But I would break up on the spot if I saw my girlfriend, let alone fiancee, play a kissing part.

My point is that, if everyone seems to think disrobing for movies is wrong and playing sex or foreplay scenes is wrong, why is kissing okay?

I realise that I sound worked up, but I really can’t get over teachers demanding this from girls. I can’t get over girls letting themselves be kissed like that by classmates or other random guys. I can’t get over parents allowing that to happen (with all respect, I believe that allowing even a closed-mouth romantic-style kiss in such circumstances is not proper).

Just why do plays have to include such scenes? Can’t it be resolved by having the girl and the guy cross their cheeks so that it looks like they are kissing?

I don’t know. Maybe I am weird. But I can’t call it morally proper. It seems to me a sign of bad conduct and it typically makes me stop dating the girl when I hear about such things. Don’t get me wrong – what’s confessed and absolved is confessed and absolved. But if it isn’t even reflected upon and regretted afterwards, I have a problem with it. Even if we are talking about adults reminiscing about their highschool times.

It may be a funny thing for a girl to talk about, but it’s hardly a funny thing for a guy to listen to. To me, it’s like changing herself into coins and giving them away cent by cent.

So, any thoughts please? I would really prefer to be proven wrong, but I don’t see it happening. I haven’t been a saint. Especially when I was younger. I haven’t always danced politely or put my hands around myself and my words or actions haven’t always been ones befitting a proper gentleman. But I have regretted all of it. Each single bad look, bad touch or bad word I have ever given a woman has returned to me and given me a great pain the moment I understood how wrong it was. And what now? It’s all right and perfectly OK when girls lie down on the stage and are kissed by guys they don’t give a damn about? When they collect French kisses or even closed mouth kisses from scenic partners?

Wonder what’s next. Wonder what other things scripts can require or whatever such. Perhaps the play requires perky nipples. So here’s a t-shirt with no bra underneath. Perhaps the play requires a lingerie show? So here go the clothes. Kissing not enough? OK, perhaps a clingy hug will fix it. Or maybe some groping properly to illustrate the sexual tension between the characters. Somehow, I can’t get along with this. Am I the only one who sees the problem?

Refute me, debunk me, tear my logic down and shred it into pieces. I will only be thankful. But it feels all to real. It saddens me a lot that such things happen and that they are tolerated. If I were a bishop and a Catholic teacher ordered something like that, he would find himself under interdict. In my view, the people involved need more of a pastoral address than a punishment, as they don’t seem to realise what they are doing, but this isn’t always the case. Sometimes people just want the juicy bits for publicity and they don’t care about the morality of it.

From kissing to sex, I would never get along with my romantic partner doing it with someone else for any other reason than being forcibly raped. If it happened in a relationship before marriage, I would break up. After marriage, I would go to the tribunal and ask for nullity decree. Kissing is not sex. Closed-mouth kissing is not tongue-kissing. I don’t buy such excuses.

I am aware that our religion doesn’t require us to be uptight moralists and gloomy people. But I still can’t find any other opinion about this in my mind. Thanks for all replies and please do go on. This is very important for me. Ah, and please don’t get offended by whatever I say. My intention is not to cast rocks (even if I think punishment is due, especially to teachers and parents who allow such things to happen – let alone order girls to do them, and I believe there is most likely a sin to confess here) but to discuss the problem from a moral and ethical point of view and from the point of view of plain human decency.
 
Chevalier, I agree with you to a great extent. The line I would draw between chastity and indecency would be short, non-passionate closed-mouth kissing. We can kiss our family this way, and in many cultures friends greet this way. It is never misconstrued as a romantic or sexual act. Therefore, in a play, I think it would be acceptable to have this kind of kissing (and only this kind!) to portray affection. If it is between the Hero and Heroine, the audience can infer romance without any more visual clues.
 
why is it the “poor” girls that are being “taken advantage of”?
 
@Rand Al’Thor: You make a good point. I did fail to address the girls’ participation properly. They could always refuse. They do it for better marks. Or to satisfy the teacher. I can’t agree with such motives.

@Dr. Colossus: I understand your point. Myself, I remember getting a closed mouth kiss from a friend along with birthday wishes. Or at rare occasions when seeing someone after a long time. However, there is one problem I have with it in scenic plays:
  1. If someone normally kisses friends this way, well… perhaps it’s strange in our culture, but I could get over such a scenic kiss.
  2. But if someone doesn’t kiss friends on the mouth and makes a big deal of kissing boyfriends, then even a simple peck on the lips on the stage with a random classmate is a problem.
I don’t even touch the problem if the girl finds excitement in it (in my example she did), but even the fact that she participates in the material act gives me a problem. I don’t know how teachers or parents can (in clean conscience, at least) allow even the material act to happen.

If I saw my girlfriend lying down and being kissed as the Sleeping Beauty, I would dump her on the spot. Same for Romeo and Juliet kind of kissing. I would have no problem at all if she pretended to be kissing - rubbing cheeks, hugging, covering heads… whatever. I would never allow my daughter to kiss a guy on the lips on the stage. I don’t really want to judge actors, but I would never date a woman who kissed guys on the lips on the stage and I would dump my girlfriend for that, as well. Wouldn’t you?

My other point is: If the girl allows random classmates or other completely irrelevant guys to lean over and kiss her or to kiss her passionately (at least pretending it’s passionate while still really kissing), what point does all your respect for women make? What point respecting her if she gives herself away like that?

To me, it doesn’t make any difference if it’s between the Hero and the Heroine. Such a scene can always be removed. And it can always be faked. A closed mouth kiss isn’t unchaste per se, but it is still a carnal superfluum. I would compare the difference between this kind of kiss and a more passionate kind to the difference between posing in a tight T-shirt without a bra and posing bare-chested. The latter is worse than the former and the former doesn’t make the world end. But it’s still wrong, I think. I would never do that to any girlfriend or fiancee or wife of mine. And if the person is single, it’s still not really kind towards the future romantic partner.
 
I wonder how often and in how many high schools this sort of play – one where kissing is expected of the actors – is performed. It may well be more widespread than I know; it’s been awhile since I was in high school.

When I was in high school – and that was in the rural South – a play that involved kissing would have been absolutely verboten. The high school drama teacher would not have even considered such a play and the principal would have never allowed it to be performed. (However, as a very interesting side note, let me say that the play we did when I took drama my senior year in high school reenacted the Scopes Monkey Trial.)

I know that when I was in high school, if I had been selected to play a part in which I had to kiss a girl (who for the sake of argument I had no feelings for, was not dating and had no desire to date). I would have been very uncomfortable with that. I most likely would not have done it, not primarily because it would be disrespectful to the girl in question but because it would have violated my ideals of self respect. My reasoning for this is such:
  1. I have no romantic interest in the girl in question.
  2. She has no romantic interest in me.
  3. As a result of #1 and #2, the kiss is not a physical manifestation of a relationship between us. It is a symbol of a relationship between two characters in a play.
  4. As a result of #3, it is an act without the intent of emotion. For it to be disrespectful on my part to the girl in question there would have to be some intent behind it instead of it just being an empty act.
  5. Since it is an empty act in this case, yet it is an action that properly carries with it deep meaning – symbolically, emotionally, socially and personally – I have, by doing this act in a way that cheapens it, also cheapened myself.
Conclusion: it is a personal violation because, though I harbor no intention of being disrespectful to a fellow human being, I have violated my own self respect.

Keeping in mind that I went to school in the rural South, I would have, further, been a fool to agree to be in such a play because if I had kissed someone else’s girlfriend, he would never have waited long enough for me to explain items one through six before beginning the Good Ol’ Fashioned Whuppin’ that is so famous in the rural South.

It seems to me that this possibility of starting a Good Ol’ Fashioned Whuppin’ should be a very real concern for any teacher. After all, when you’re dealing with a room full of kids in their mid- to late-teens, you’ve got a bundle of emotions, hormones and dry tinder just waiting to burst into flame. So, I have to wonder again – how often does this happen? If it is an isolated incident, maybe a letter to the principal objecting to such kissing in a play would be appropriate and would solve the problem.

It seems to me that teachers in high school spent so much of their time throwing the proverbial buckets of cold water onto students to keep them off of each other that it would be a real fool of a teacher to encourage passionate kissing as part of a school play. I hope that if the actions of such a teacher were brought to the attention of the school principal, that he or she would put a stop to it. From what I hear on the news, schools today are deathly afraid of finding themselves in court; it seems that in a practical sense, it would be a very short walk from a teacher requiring two students to kiss to that teacher finding him- or herself in court charged with sexual harrasment or whatever it is properly called when you’re voyeuristically deriving pleasure from watching two minors kiss.
 
…there are ways to kiss without swapping spit…sorry!.. you still look like your trading bacteria, but your mouths are closed… any acting coach can demonstrate…

depending upon how good she looks, i might volunteer… sorry, just had to…😃

Peace:thumbsup:
 
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chevalier:
To me, it doesn’t make any difference if it’s between the Hero and the Heroine. Such a scene can always be removed. And it can always be faked. A closed mouth kiss isn’t unchaste per se, but it is still a carnal superfluum. I would compare the difference between this kind of kiss and a more passionate kind to the difference between posing in a tight T-shirt without a bra and posing bare-chested. The latter is worse than the former and the former doesn’t make the world end. But it’s still wrong, I think. I would never do that to any girlfriend or fiancee or wife of mine. And if the person is single, it’s still not really kind towards the future romantic partner.
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I think there is a line between wrong (i.e. sinful) and imprudent (not sinful but a bad idea). A kiss in a play is an act, and everyone involved knows it’s an act. It may be, however, a near occasion of sin if either party is tempted to enjoy the act. This is why I personally would say the line is at short, closed-mouth kissing–it’s difficult to be tempted to enjoy something that happens so quickly. I don’t believe that it would be unchaste (or unfaithful in the case of an actor/actress in a relationship) because such a kiss is not something that would be considered an exclusive act, like open-mouth kissing would be, for the cultural reasons I previously stated.
 
I would still tend to think it’s intimate and somewhat romantic. Yeah, an occasion for unchastity but not unchaste etc etc, but likely materially unfaithful in my view. The idea is that unenjoyed stripping down for a movie or unenjoyed foreplay scene is still materially unfaithful. In my case, interestingly, I have never actually kissed a girlfriend on the mouth. They have all been friends. However, it always felt somewhat romantic and the idea was being such good friends. One was a crush, another was a good friend having not seen me for long and enjoying the reunion, yet another case was a kind-hearted birthday wish with a kiss from a good friend. Other two or more times, however, felt unmerited afterwards because there were no such special circumstances and the cheek would have perfectly sufficed and while they still weren’t empty acts, they did feel somewhat wrong. Never really moved to frenching anyone, but I have a feeling that an old friend would have made it sooner than a new crush, let alone now that I wouldn’t probably do it before marriage unless maybe with a fiancee and never just for the fun of it or out of boredom but always to show feelings.

This is why closed-mouth kissing still feels wrong to me in scenic plays – even if I understand that sometimes people kiss friends this way and I wouldn’t complain if my romantic partner had such a habit. I would surely complain if the habit extended to new acquaintances, though, let alone scenic partners.

Unless we consider closed-mouth kissing to be a friendly greeting, it doesn’t matter if it’s closed or open – i.e. it does matter but only as to the degree, not as to the substance. It’s like posing without a bra with or without a wet t-shirt on. Just a matter of degree. However, if we still limit it, let’s say to short closed-mouth pecks, then it looks less gross, less intense. But it won’t suffice for the needs of the plot.

My idea is this: the audience wants a kissing scene to get off on it. The teacher wants to provide. The girl wants to provide and to satisfy the teacher. Parents want I don’t know what but they are failing in their job when they let it happen.

If the goal were simply to signify that kissing takes place in the plot and no one craved a kissing scene, everyone would be content with just a hint – like rubbing cheeks or hugging and sticking heads together and bending them left and right. Whatever.

Some conclusions:
  1. The teacher who requires such a scene commits sexual harassment.
  2. The parent allows the child to be sexually harassed by compliance.
  3. The girl cheats on her boyfriend.
  4. Something is wrong with the guy – morally and psychologically.
I would never date an actor who played in such scenes. I would sooner date a properly repented prostitute.
 
Perhaps someone is or has been in a relationship with an actor and could offer some insight?
 
Okay, another problem: How do you explain to someone who has done it that his or her actions were wrong? We are talking about a Protestant whose church, however, seems to have the same principles of sexual morality as our Roman Church. I could explain it to a theologian, sure, but how to explain this to someone who is young and not much into theology, debate, logical deduction and stuff? Any ideas?
 
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