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rben20
Guest
If Protestants broke from the Catholic Church, did anyone break from the Orthodox Church?
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Aramis
Guest
Oh, yes…
From the Eastern Orthodox…
- Old Ritualists - some, not all
- Old Believers - Most, not all. A few are still nominally in communion with Russian Orthodoxy of the Moscva Patriarchate.
- Priestless Old Believers - orthodox equivalent to protestantism.
- Several Orthodox churches are not in communion with the main body of Orthodoxy. Including the Ukrainian Orthodox of the Kyiv Patriarchate.
- All of the Eastern Catholic Churches of the Byzantine Rite except the Italo-Albanians.
- Lots of vagante pseudochurches lead by former Orthodox clerics.
- Celtic Orthodox (claim to be Greco-Alexandrian in apostolic succession…) but have married bishops (but no female deacons, priests, nor bishops), and treat deaconess as a variation of Acolyte (and thus minor orders).
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mardukm
Guest
On the Oriental side, the Indian Malankara Orthodox broke away from the Syriac Orthodox. It is largely a jurisdictional matter, but there are those in Syriac Orthodoxy who view it as a doctrinal matter in two ways:
Blessings
- The schism reflects the heresy of phyletism;
- The schism denies the jurisdictional prerogatives of the Patriarch which has a doctrinal basis in the Petrine primacy.
Blessings
M
mardukm
Guest
I can’t believe I forgot about Max Michel.
He’s the self-proclaimed patriarch of a vagante group from the Coptic Orthodox Church. Otherwise traditional theologically, his church accepts certain Pentecostal ideas. He’s in left field, ecclesiologically speaking, and allows for married bishops.
Interestingly, IIRC, he once said something to the effect that the Catholic Church has only one synod, while the Orthodox Church has many, many synods!
Blessings
He’s the self-proclaimed patriarch of a vagante group from the Coptic Orthodox Church. Otherwise traditional theologically, his church accepts certain Pentecostal ideas. He’s in left field, ecclesiologically speaking, and allows for married bishops.
Interestingly, IIRC, he once said something to the effect that the Catholic Church has only one synod, while the Orthodox Church has many, many synods!
Blessings
R
rben20
Guest
Wow thank you all, very informative. I don’t know much about the Orthodox and was just curious if they had similar breakaways as the Catholics did with Protestants.
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Harpazo
Guest
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Thyme
Guest
In God’s own time we will be re-unitedWe would say that Rome broke from us.Does that count?
In Christ,
Andrew
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rben20
Guest
I think of us splitting and going our separate ways. Not one breaking away from either orWe would say that Rome broke from us.
In Christ,
Andrew
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mardukm
Guest
Dear brother Harpazo,
Blessings,
Marduk
Since Orthodox polemicists often blame the Catholic Church for the phenomenon of Protestantism, does this mean that the Orthodox bear the blame for the Catholic Church splitting from them?We would say that Rome broke from us.
Blessings,
Marduk
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Harpazo
Guest
Was the East at the time of the schism the same as the West was at the time of the Reformation? Both were entirely different situations and I’m sure you will even admit that. From our side, I would say that the Orthodox probably could have and should done more to maintain unity, but history is full of what-ifs and there is nothing we can do to change it.Dear brother Harpazo,
Since Orthodox polemicists often blame the Catholic Church for the phenomenon of Protestantism, does this mean that the Orthodox bear the blame for the Catholic Church splitting from them?
Blessings,
Marduk
As an aside, why do you constantly use the phrase “Orthodox polemicists”? I find it rather offensive and hardly conducive to discussion.
In Christ,
Andrew
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mardukm
Guest
Because Orthodox polemicists exist. I distinguish them from Orthodox apologists (and I’m sure many here will attest that I often do that). Apologists work for unity through understanding. That means they’re more interested in presenting Orthodox Truth for the sake of understanding. Orthodox polemicists, on the other hand, are more concerned with making the Catholic Church look bad. When an Orthodox apologist goes around just trying to make the Catholic Church look bad, then that person is a polemicist as far as I’m concerned.
Heaping blame on the Catholic Church for something is the job and method of the Orthodox polemicist, not the Orthodox apologist. You can also recognize a polemicist when he/she consistently tries to misrepresent Catholic teaching. I add the word “consistently” because we can’t assume someone is a polemicist just because he or she misrepresents Catholic teaching one or two times - that might just be a symptom of genuine misunderstanding. But when that person constantly misrepresents despite numerous attempts to correct them, that person would get the polemicist designation IMO.
I’m sure you have met your share of Catholics who befit the designation “polemicist” rather than “apologist.”
Hope that helps, and sorry for any offense.
Blessings,
Marduk
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OrdinaryMelkite
Guest
Quite right. And nobody “left.” The Two lungs had a “Spat” an hopefully one day that Spat will be resolved. God willing.In God’s own time we will be re-united
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OrdinaryMelkite
Guest
Marduk----Because Orthodox polemicists exist. I distinguish them from Orthodox apologists (and I’m sure many here will attest that I often do that). Apologists work for unity through understanding. That means they’re more interested in presenting Orthodox Truth for the sake of understanding. Orthodox polemicists, on the other hand, are more concerned with making the Catholic Church look bad. When an Orthodox apologist goes around just trying to make the Catholic Church look bad, then that person is a polemicist as far as I’m concerned.
Heaping blame on the Catholic Church for something is the job and method of the Orthodox polemicist, not the Orthodox apologist. You can also recognize a polemicist when he/she consistently tries to misrepresent Catholic teaching. I add the word “consistently” because we can’t assume someone is a polemicist just because he or she misrepresents Catholic teaching one or two times - that might just be a symptom of genuine misunderstanding. But when that person constantly misrepresents despite numerous attempts to correct them, that person would get the polemicist designation IMO.
I’m sure you have met your share of Catholics who befit the designation “polemicist” rather than “apologist.”
Hope that helps, and sorry for any offense.
Blessings,
Marduk
I do not know any “Orthodox Polemicists.” Although I’m sure you have.
I DO know of and actually know some Orthodox that simply (for some reason) do not like us ECers. I have tried to reach out to these fellow Christians and even asked if I could attend Orthodox Liturgy and they’re like “You need to become Orthodox to do that.” I have invited them to Our services and they have refused.
The Melkites I know have nothing but good will towards our Orthodox brothers and sisters. Part of the prayers in the Liturgy includes a prayer for the well-being of “Our Orthodox Brethren.” Since we happen to be mostly Orthodox—in Communion with Rome and agreeing with most WC doctrine, but still Orthodox.
I get the feeling, though that the majority of my OC brethren do not consider us “legitimate” Orthodox but just Roman Catholics.
I am NOT saying any Orthodox here are like that. Believe me. I just speak from MY experience.
And I think that experience is sad for me. The ECers I know hope fervently for “reunification” more than anthing else. It’s too bad a lot of the OC people are not willing to countenance that. Not ALL, but many.
One can only pray to the Theotokos, the Saints, and Christ for intercession in the matter.
What do YOU think, Marduk and others?
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shaky
Guest
I Think changeing doctrines over time is the main cause of all Schisms.
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Nine_Two
Guest
And here I always thought apologetics was defending the faith…
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OrdinaryMelkite
Guest
Yes, indeed. And politics as well that unfortunately get carried over to the centuries. And refusal of BOTH parties to “give a little.”
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Hesychios
Guest
Hello my friend,
Just a slight point of correction.
In the early days of the church the catechumens were sent out before the Sacred Mysteries, and the doors were barred. Non -believing visitors were not normally welcome for a number of reasons, but that was a very long time ago. It was the same in the west.
Visitors are common now, some visit for years without ever converting.
Just a slight point of correction.
I don’t know any Orthodox who would say that. If they did they are wrong, all are welcome to visit, you may attend the liturgy without their approval, and speak to the priest if you like.
In the early days of the church the catechumens were sent out before the Sacred Mysteries, and the doors were barred. Non -believing visitors were not normally welcome for a number of reasons, but that was a very long time ago. It was the same in the west.
Visitors are common now, some visit for years without ever converting.
That does not surprise me.
I think perhaps your concept of reunification and my concept of reunification are not the same.
O
OrdinaryMelkite
Guest
Hello, Hesychios!!!
Glad to finally talk to you.
I always enjoyed your posts even before I signed up here.
I have no idea why the Orthodox brethren I talked to said what they did either. Probably they REALLY do not want me to attend Orthodox services.
I’ll follow you advice and talk to the priest. The reason i didn’t before was I didn’t know if the attitudes the two that told this to me were representative of the whole congregation as a whole. To paraphrase one of your posts, they probably need to get their “heads examined.”And yes, I was not totally surprised either that they would not attend Melkite services. Oh, well.
Just goes to show you how the impact of something that happened in the 11th Century can reverberate across time and affect folks to this day. Not the total reason for the snub, of course, but it does play a big role in this.
I do not know why-----we follow the follow the Orthodox filioque (among other things). I know an EC Melkite that says he considers himself Melkite only in that he is in Communion With Rome. For the rest he is Orthodox. I know OF two Orthodox who believe in the IC (like most of our church does). Go figure.
Reunification for ME would be for both sides to “give a little”-------that’s a major oversimplification of my position, but it is early in the morning, I have to go do errands and then go to to work, and I don’t feel like getting into an elaborate post right now. I’m sure you understand.
:I know it is highly unlikely that “Reunification” will happen anytime soon (and probably EVER) but one can only dream, can’t I?
Anyway, glad I got to talk to you. You rock,
BTW, not to “pry,” but what were you doing in China?
You don’t have to answer that if you don’t want to----just very curious. China is one of the countries I would go to if I had lots of money and time.
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