Science, Spirituality, and Religion

[Moonstruck888]

Ok, there’s a misunderstanding here. When I say “higher purpose” it just means “more important” or “more meaningful”. It’s “higher” than something else.

Remember, the question was whether suffering serves some purpose. I call it “higher” than mearly nothing or randomness or accidental entropy.

So, I don’t think your goals are greed, lust and ambition. I also agree that they would be tawdry and banal purposes. But even still – if you said you wanted more pleasure, that’s a “goal”. It’s a purpose that you’re striving for. So, suffering and hardship serve to help achieve that purpose. We consider it a “higher” purpose because it is intended for a good reason and the good you hope to attain is “better” than what you’d get if you avoided all suffering.

Again, you established a reason or meaning to the discomfort and pain that you willingly chose in studies and passing exams. That helps you get more money – and you can do some good with that money. So, the suffering helps you achieve that.

I don’t really understand where you’re coming from here at all. You don’t know me. You don’t know how I think. You don’t know how I feel.

What is important and meaningful to you could be futile and pointless to me and vice versa. Meaning is an entirely subjective thing.

 

[reggieM]

I don’t really understand where you’re coming from here at all.

Ok, I will explain in more detail.

You don’t know me. You don’t know how I think. You don’t know how I feel.

I’m not trying to analyze your own life. I did make some assumptions about you which I thought you would accept. But I will retract them and not do that.

What is important and meaningful to you could be futile and pointless to me and vice versa. Meaning is an entirely subjective thing.

Right. But the fact that you find something meaningful is what is shared. The concept of meaning is something that is the same. You put more value and meaning on one thing or another. I do the same. It doesn’t matter what the thing is – sex, drugs, faith, virtue, pleasure – whatever. But one thing will have more meaning than another.

So, if you want pleasure, you need money to get it. Therefore you need education. Therefore you go to school and work to pass tests. You take the tests to achieve the goal of pleasure in the end. So, the priority here (or “higher” purpose) is pleasure. You are willing to accept some discomfort and pain of studying and taking tests to achieve the goal. It doesn’t matter what the goal or meaning is. It’s that you’re willing to accept suffering to reach the goal. So, the suffering serves the purpose that you established.

Ok, there’s a misunderstanding here. When I say “higher purpose” it just means “more important” or “more meaningful”. It’s “higher” than something else.

Again, “higher” is in terms of “priority” or “importance”.
When you decide that you want to do something – no matter what it is – that is a “higher” or “priority” purpose for you. You set a goal. Now, to achieve it you have to do things.

You set a goal not attain pleasure, but also not to deliberately harm others in so doing.
That’s a purpose. You have to restrain yourself, at times, from some pleasures that would hurt others. So, you accept the pain of restraint to achieve your purpose or goal.

You stated before:

I see nothing high nor lofty in lust for personal advancement. Greed and ambition are actually rather tawdry and banal as far as purpose goes.

I didn’t understand this point, sorry. I don’t know what your reasons for getting money are. I was just pointing to your life because you necessarily accept suffering for a greater good. For you, the greater good is pleasure. It would be sin (as you say it) not to seek pleasure because we only have one chance. So, your goal or purpose is pleasure-seeking. So, you endure some hardships in order to attain pleasure. You accept some suffering to do this.

You said it all very clearly here:

My “higher” purpose for going to work is money. My higher purpose for passing exams that same. Pursuit of pleasure, the fact that I want to be able to afford nice things, is what makes me go to work.

We can exchange the term “higher purpose” for “greater good”. YOu accept having to go to work and the pains involved in that as well as passing exams to achieve what you consider to be a greater good.

 

[reggieM]

*Truth *is not a theory of everything. It is all around us.

A subject manipulated the world from the very beginning.

Throughout our history, human beings are habitants in only a small planet i.e. the Earth.

“My mother and brothers are those who HEAR God’s word and put it into practice.”

• Luke 8:21

Sounds can be silent. *Silence *cannot be a sound.

I enjoyed that. I already read your philosophical principles on your portfolio page and this caught my attention:

1. When Light is on, Dark off. Dark switched on, Light off. Lighte and Dark are from Birth. They are different, but one.

Cold is the absence of heat. Absence of cold is non-generative. Heat emerges from love - as through the heart. Satan is trapped forever in Dante’s ice-block.

 

[Moonstruck888]

Okay Reggie, I believe I understand where you’re coming from now.

 

[reggieM]

Moonstruck - ok, that’s good. Thanks.

You will cause yourself some pain to achieve a purpose. You do it for a greater good than what you would get without the pain (for example, if you decided to sleep longer every day you wouldn’t attend class).

Now what about when you cause other people pain for a greater good or higher purpose?
This might happen with your girlfriend or family member.

A good example would be with people here on CAF.

Someone may ask:

“Why did Moonstruck888 cause me this painful feeling”?

Possible answers:

1. He deliberately causes pain to people because he is evil and a psychopath
2. It was an accident. He doesn’t know what he’s doing.
3. He did it for a higher purpose or greater good. He said the truth and there was no way to prevent the pain that comes from revealing the truth about this issue.

So now, it’s not possible to fully judge you until we know the purpose.
The person experienced pain. But it could have been for a greater good.

What greater good could come from you causing someone pain?
Well, the learning process itself causes pain – it stretches us and that does hurt.
So, if you were trying to teach something on CAF and it caused pain - it was not because you are an evil psychopath, but because you’re helping someone learn. Or you’re correcting an error – there is no way to avoid the pain with that sometimes.

 

[Moonstruck888]

So now, it’s not possible to fully judge you until we know the purpose.

That I can explain.

Going on a forum where everyone thinks the same way I do so that I could expound my personal opinions and be slapped on the back for them might be more instantly gratifying than being shot down in flames here, but I wouldn’t learn anything doing that.

Coming in to the lions den as it were, and holding my own against people who think a completely different way from the way I do is actually a lot more gratifying. It keeps me sharp, makes you have to expand the boundaries and think and argue in ways I haven’t before.

Frankly, I think that works both ways. I don’t see how this forum could be much more than a conformist club if it were not for people with different view points coming in here and stirring things up.

 

[Seeker2010]

We see it with scientists building the 10 billion dollar Great Hadron collider to try and find dark matter that DOES NOT EXIST except in the dreams and mythology of disbelieving god hating scientists. Why don’t we just run them out of town instead of feeding them with endless government grants and distinguished positions in the schools which educate our children.

I’ve had enough.

Whoa, there, slow down lest you come off sounding like the Christian Taliban. Run those godless scientists out on a rail? Whoops, too late.

I understand your fear. You are so totally, blindly adherent to the tenants of your faith that anyone who even begs the question is being heretical. As your church responded to Davinci, out of fear of being shown beyond a shadow of a doubt to have made inaccurate statements you are afraid of setting of a series of dominoes in which the church is not just wrong, but they’re almost ALWAYS wrong, and if that is the case it means that yours and others belief systems are, by extension, wrong.

It was once common knowledge that humanity, and the earth, and the heavens and the universe were roughly 6,000 years old. In fact, in certain Fundamentalist Christian sects, that’s STILL taught.

Except, whoops, wrong. On every count, and provable beyond a scintilla of a doubt.

Then there was the global flood. The very existence of a man named Noah. Nope, never happened.

10 Commandments literally chiseled in stone tablets by God himself. Really?? You’re on a trip through a desert and you’re going to lug around stone tablets with the most important rules of humanity? And which 10 are we going to use, as there are different versions? You did know that, did you not?

Satan really showed Jesus all of the kingdoms and offered him dominion? From what vantage point can you see all of the earth?

The stars were created after the earth. BZZT.

Enough, you and I both know I could go on and on that you’re going to fire back with ‘Well, the Bible isn’t a science book, and not all stories are literal’ And it’s not, but it’s absolutely horrible track record of not just being wrong, but being wrong about just about EVERYTHING strongly implies, to me anyway, that the whole shebang was neither divinely written, nor inspired. For the God that your religion describes knew, even if ancient men did not, that the earth is just one rock, rotating a garden variety star, which is one of trillions in an overall galaxy that makes us less than nothing in comparison.

Now, had he ‘inspired’ some statements that made no sense to tribal Isralies, perhaps even for centuries, but that is now common knowledge (say that pi=3.14, or the location of Sol in the Milky Way, or the story of great lizards that were killed off by a great rock…

Now THAT would imply divine knowledge. But what we get is a God that doesn’t seem to know squat about the true nature of reality, but whose inspired stories are logical through the eyes of tribal sheep herders from thousands of years ago.

Don’t get me wrong, I believe in God, if you will, a creator, after all we are in fact here. Just not what peasants from thousands of years ago have to say about him or his rules.

Take sex. Religions in general, and Catholics in particular have some real hang-ups when it comes to what is and isn’t legal, of what is and isn’t moral. Because God has rules, and if you break them you’ll pay the price!

Well, did God actually tell someone that?

Or is it more likely that prehistoric societies, upon observing the horrible effects on the human body that were caused by promiscuity (and back in the day there WERE serious medical consequences for promiscuity, and most of them would kill you) and conclude that it was punishment and judgement from God?

Which one makes more sense to you?

 

[edwest2]

God did actually tell someone that. You can accept that or the primitive, uneducated Bronze Age sheep herders story. It’s really up to you.

God did not create a bunch of Thou Shalt Nots just to please Himself. He showed us a way to live according to His will and so as to avoid being in bondage to our human natures.

Too many so-called experts will tell you one thing today, and three months later, another group of experts will tell you the exact opposite.

God bless,
Ed

 

[reggieM]

That I can explain.

Going on a forum where everyone thinks the same way I do so that I could expound my personal opinions and be slapped on the back for them might be more instantly gratifying than being shot down in flames here, but I wouldn’t learn anything doing that.

Coming in to the lions den as it were, and holding my own against people who think a completely different way from the way I do is actually a lot more gratifying. It keeps me sharp, makes you have to expand the boundaries and think and argue in ways I haven’t before.

Frankly, I think that works both ways. I don’t see how this forum could be much more than a conformist club if it were not for people with different view points coming in here and stirring things up.

I can accept that within reasonable bounds. I’ve seen several atheists who simply wanted to have fun by insulting people and not really engaging in the discussion. So, that’s obviously not a good thing. But for anyone who is offering serious arguments, then I fully agree with you on that.

 

[reggieM]

Moonstruck - ok, that’s good. Thanks.

You will cause yourself some pain to achieve a purpose. You do it for a greater good than what you would get without the pain (for example, if you decided to sleep longer every day you wouldn’t attend class).

Now what about when you cause other people pain for a greater good or higher purpose?
This might happen with your girlfriend or family member.

A good example would be with people here on CAF.

Someone may ask:

“Why did Moonstruck888 cause me this painful feeling”?

Possible answers:

1. He deliberately causes pain to people because he is evil and a psychopath
2. It was an accident. He doesn’t know what he’s doing.
3. He did it for a higher purpose or greater good. He said the truth and there was no way to prevent the pain that comes from revealing the truth about this issue.

So now, it’s not possible to fully judge you until we know the purpose.
The person experienced pain. But it could have been for a greater good.

What greater good could come from you causing someone pain?
Well, the learning process itself causes pain – it stretches us and that does hurt.
So, if you were trying to teach something on CAF and it caused pain - it was not because you are an evil psychopath, but because you’re helping someone learn. Or you’re correcting an error – there is no way to avoid the pain with that sometimes.

The point here is that suffering can serve a higher purpose and a greater good. We won’t know that unless we know the reason for the pain that we encounter.

So, we can see that in our own lives. We inflict pain on ourselves or on others for a greater good and a higher purpose.

So, if you start by accepting that God created the universe for a purpose, then it would be false to assume that pain and hardship you see in life has no greater good or higher purpose.

 

[Seeker2010]

God did actually tell someone that.

Really? Who? When? More importantly, what evidence exists of said communication, for if you are going to tell me I can’t do something that I like to do you better have a good reason. “Because you are harming someone” is a good reason. “Because you are taking something which is not yours” is, too.

“Because (my) God said so” is not, unless your God is prepared to prove himself.

You can accept that or the primitive, uneducated Bronze Age sheep herders story. It’s really up to you.

It’s not an either/or proposition, as they are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Moonstruck888]

I can accept that within reasonable bounds. I’ve seen several atheists who simply wanted to have fun by insulting people and not really engaging in the discussion. So, that’s obviously not a good thing. But for anyone who is offering serious arguments, then I fully agree with you on that.

I have no wish to insult anyone. I’m sure my views will be offensive to some people, and I have heard views that I have found offensive here, but first step towards learning tolerance is being offended.

 

[kk23wong]

Moonstruck - ok, that’s good. Thanks.

You will cause yourself some pain to achieve a purpose. You do it for a greater good than what you would get without the pain (for example, if you decided to sleep longer every day you wouldn’t attend class).

Now what about when you cause other people pain for a greater good or higher purpose?
This might happen with your girlfriend or family member.

A good example would be with people here on CAF.

Someone may ask:

“Why did Moonstruck888 cause me this painful feeling”?

Possible answers:

1. He deliberately causes pain to people because he is evil and a psychopath
2. It was an accident. He doesn’t know what he’s doing.
3. He did it for a higher purpose or greater good. He said the truth and there was no way to prevent the pain that comes from revealing the truth about this issue.

So now, it’s not possible to fully judge you until we know the purpose.
The person experienced pain. But it could have been for a greater good.

What greater good could come from you causing someone pain?
Well, the learning process itself causes pain – it stretches us and that does hurt.
So, if you were trying to teach something on CAF and it caused pain - it was not because you are an evil psychopath, but because you’re helping someone learn. Or you’re correcting an error – there is no way to avoid the pain with that sometimes.

Suffering for a higher purpose is conditional exchanges.

**Suffering for an afterlife is a goal driven force created by the God **which is a traditional concept dervied from the differences in our physical presence.

It’s no suprises that the Earth is a supreme being. No matter you resent from it or not, it’s a very scientific and logical answer for the start of many religions. Although many catholic condemned it as a pseduoscience, the debate must take place in the possible future. Times cannot be turned back. The concept of God is already heritage.

Suffering for gaining wealth which considered to be excessive is an evil.

Teru Wong

 

[reggieM]

It’s no suprises that the Earth is a supreme being.

It depends on what is meant by “supreme”. Relatively speaking, the Earth is supreme when compared with other planets. But in universal terms, the Earth cannot be supreme as the highest being. It is contingent on other beings for its existence.

No matter you resent from it or not, it’s a very scientific and logical answer for the start of many religions. Although many catholic condemned it as a pseduoscience, the debate must take place in the possible future. Times cannot be turned back. The concept of God is already heritage.