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LtTony
Guest
What does scripture have to say regarding what a Christian’s attitude should be toward Israel. I have a fundamentalist acquaintence who says anything other than full political support for Israel is unbiblical.
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Fidelis
Guest
Don’t get caught up in this fundamentalist aproach to interpreting Scipture, which is tied to the error of Dispensationalism (e.g. the “Left Behind” garbage). The modern secular State of Israel does not have a direct corrolation to the biblical Kingdom of Israel which was meant to be a theocracy. Though the Jews as a people continue to be precious to God, the nation-state, by even traditional Jewish reckoning, is not a restoration of ancient Israel or Judah, with it’s Davidic monarchy or temple sacrifices which came to an end with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. You can take it from there.
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davethecatholic
Guest
As usual, I could not agree more with Fidelis!!! Be careful of this type of fundamentalist thought!!
With that in mind, here is what The Catechism has to say on Israel/the Jewish people:
839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.” 325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, 326 “the first to hear the Word of God.” 327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”, 328 “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.” 329
840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
674 The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel”, for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus. 568 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: “Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old.” 569 St. Paul echoes him: “For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?” 570 The “full inclusion” of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of “the full number of the Gentiles”, 571 will enable the People of God to achieve “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”, in which “God may be all in all”. 572
60 The people descended from Abraham would be the trustee of the promise made to the patriarchs, the chosen people, called to prepare for that day when God would gather all his children into the unity of the Church. 18 They would be the root on to which the Gentiles would be grafted, once they came to believe. 19
759 “The eternal Father, in accordance with the utterly gratuitous and mysterious design of his wisdom and goodness, created the whole universe and chose to raise up men to share in his own divine life,” 150 to which he calls all men in his Son. “The Father . . . determined to call together in a holy Church those who should believe in Christ.” 151 This “family of God” is gradually formed and takes shape during the stages of human history, in keeping with the Father’s plan. In fact, “already present in figure at the beginning of the world, this Church was prepared in marvellous fashion in the history of the people of Israel and the old Advance. Established in this last age of the world and made manifest in the outpouring of the Spirit, it will be brought to glorious completion at the end of time.” 152
Continued on next thread…
With that in mind, here is what The Catechism has to say on Israel/the Jewish people:
839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.” 325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, 326 “the first to hear the Word of God.” 327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”, 328 “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.” 329
840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
674 The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel”, for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus. 568 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: “Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old.” 569 St. Paul echoes him: “For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?” 570 The “full inclusion” of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of “the full number of the Gentiles”, 571 will enable the People of God to achieve “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”, in which “God may be all in all”. 572
60 The people descended from Abraham would be the trustee of the promise made to the patriarchs, the chosen people, called to prepare for that day when God would gather all his children into the unity of the Church. 18 They would be the root on to which the Gentiles would be grafted, once they came to believe. 19
759 “The eternal Father, in accordance with the utterly gratuitous and mysterious design of his wisdom and goodness, created the whole universe and chose to raise up men to share in his own divine life,” 150 to which he calls all men in his Son. “The Father . . . determined to call together in a holy Church those who should believe in Christ.” 151 This “family of God” is gradually formed and takes shape during the stages of human history, in keeping with the Father’s plan. In fact, “already present in figure at the beginning of the world, this Church was prepared in marvellous fashion in the history of the people of Israel and the old Advance. Established in this last age of the world and made manifest in the outpouring of the Spirit, it will be brought to glorious completion at the end of time.” 152
Continued on next thread…
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davethecatholic
Guest
Continued from earlier…
762 The remote preparation for this gathering together of the People of God begins when he calls Abraham and promises that he will become the father of a great people. 157 Its immediate preparation begins with Israel’s election as the People of God. By this election, Israel is to be the sign of the future gathering of All nations. 158 But the prophets accuse Israel of breaking the covenant and behaving like a prostitute. They announce a new and eternal covenant. “Christ instituted this New Covenant.” 159
1093 In the sacramental economy the Holy Spirit fulfills what was prefigured in the Old Covenant. Since Christ’s Church was “prepared in marvellous fashion in the history of the people of Israel and in the Old Covenant,” 14 the Church’s liturgy has retained certain elements of the worship of the Old Covenant as integral and irreplaceable, adopting them as her own:
-notably, reading the Old Testament;
-praying the Psalms;
-above all, recalling the saving events and significant realities which have found their fulfillment in the mystery of Christ (promise and covenant, Exodus and Passover, kingdom and temple, exile and return).
709 The Law, the sign of God’s promise and covenant, ought to have governed the hearts and institutions of that people to whom Abraham’s faith gave birth. “If you will obey my voice and keep my covenant, . . . you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” 75 But after David, Israel gave in to the temptation of becoming a kingdom like other nations. The Kingdom, however, the object of the promise made to David, 76 would be the work of the Holy Spirit; it would belong to the poor according to the Spirit.
710 The forgetting of the Law and the infidelity to the covenant end in death: it is the Exile, apparently the failure of the promises, which is in fact the mysterious fidelity of the Savior God and the beginning of a promised restoration, but according to the Spirit. The People of God had to suffer this purification. 77 In God’s plan, the Exile already stands in the shadow of the Cross, and the Remnant of the poor that returns from the Exile is one of the most transparent prefigurations of the Church.
762 The remote preparation for this gathering together of the People of God begins when he calls Abraham and promises that he will become the father of a great people. 157 Its immediate preparation begins with Israel’s election as the People of God. By this election, Israel is to be the sign of the future gathering of All nations. 158 But the prophets accuse Israel of breaking the covenant and behaving like a prostitute. They announce a new and eternal covenant. “Christ instituted this New Covenant.” 159
1093 In the sacramental economy the Holy Spirit fulfills what was prefigured in the Old Covenant. Since Christ’s Church was “prepared in marvellous fashion in the history of the people of Israel and in the Old Covenant,” 14 the Church’s liturgy has retained certain elements of the worship of the Old Covenant as integral and irreplaceable, adopting them as her own:
-notably, reading the Old Testament;
-praying the Psalms;
-above all, recalling the saving events and significant realities which have found their fulfillment in the mystery of Christ (promise and covenant, Exodus and Passover, kingdom and temple, exile and return).
709 The Law, the sign of God’s promise and covenant, ought to have governed the hearts and institutions of that people to whom Abraham’s faith gave birth. “If you will obey my voice and keep my covenant, . . . you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” 75 But after David, Israel gave in to the temptation of becoming a kingdom like other nations. The Kingdom, however, the object of the promise made to David, 76 would be the work of the Holy Spirit; it would belong to the poor according to the Spirit.
710 The forgetting of the Law and the infidelity to the covenant end in death: it is the Exile, apparently the failure of the promises, which is in fact the mysterious fidelity of the Savior God and the beginning of a promised restoration, but according to the Spirit. The People of God had to suffer this purification. 77 In God’s plan, the Exile already stands in the shadow of the Cross, and the Remnant of the poor that returns from the Exile is one of the most transparent prefigurations of the Church.
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LtTony
Guest
Thanks Fidelis and David.
I will look into dispensationalism to understand them better, not necessarily have a conversation with them. Fidelis, please elaborate on “take it from there.”
David, I found the last part (709 on) of your second page interesting. I’m not sure I fully understand it, however.
By the way, when I asked for scripture to back their position, I was referred to Gen 12, 2-3; and the story of Balaam, Numbers 22-24. I’m going to look at those now.
My understanding has always been “My kingdom is not of this earth.” So I’ve never mixed scripture or prophesy with this type of world politics.
I will look into dispensationalism to understand them better, not necessarily have a conversation with them. Fidelis, please elaborate on “take it from there.”
David, I found the last part (709 on) of your second page interesting. I’m not sure I fully understand it, however.
By the way, when I asked for scripture to back their position, I was referred to Gen 12, 2-3; and the story of Balaam, Numbers 22-24. I’m going to look at those now.
My understanding has always been “My kingdom is not of this earth.” So I’ve never mixed scripture or prophesy with this type of world politics.
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Fidelis
Guest
Certainly. I only meant that you shoud not let yourself be sucked into aproaching this subject from your friends erroneous starting point: taking for granted that modern day Israel is the literal restoration of biblical Israel. Once you lock yourself into that mindset, every other error connected with dispensationalism can be made to fit. Recognize that error for what it is (along with the error of private interpretation), and their whole worldview on this subject collapses.
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davethecatholic
Guest
Most of what I included from the Catechism was to portray Catholic thought on the Jewish people (Israel).
More specifically, 709-710 Deal with the promise made to the Davidic kingdom of the OT and the New Covenant revealed throught the Holy Spirit. My point here is to focus on the Jewish people (Israel) as the recipients of the promise made by God to King David in 2 Kings 7: 12 (or 2 Samuel depending on what bible you use) “*12 And when thy days shall be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house to my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. *” This is the promise that continues today in Jesus Christ and The Church. Modern day Israel is a secular state. I believe you need to view it as such and my references were to promote that line of thought through viewing the Jewish people as the “bearers” of the Old Covenant versus being viewed as the secular state of modern-day Israel. As we know from the OT, there is much lamentation (literally) of the Jewish people for the return of the Davidic Kingdom and the fulfillment/continuation of the promise to David after David’s line is broken. But, as we all know (your protestant friends, too) indeed, The Lord has risen!! And, this fulfillment of the Davidic promise continues with Jesus and The Church, not modern day Israel. I’m afraid your protestand friends are on the wrong track, there.
Here’s some Catholic thought on Genisis 12:2-3 (as mentioned above):
762 The remote preparation for this gathering together of the People of God begins when he calls Abraham and promises that he will become the father of a great people. 157 Its immediate preparation begins with Israel’s election as the People of God. By this election, Israel is to be the sign of the future gathering of All nations. 158 But the prophets accuse Israel of breaking the covenant and behaving like a prostitute. They announce a new and eternal covenant. “Christ instituted this New Covenant.” 159
Again, the “People of God” are accused of “breaking the covenant and behaving like a prostitute”. Christ, then, replaces the old with the new as exemplified in Hebrews 9:15 *15 And therefore he is the mediator of the new testament: that by means of his death, for the redemption of those transgressions, which were under the former testament, they that are called may receive the promise of eternal inheritance. *
The Church also views Genesis 12 in the following light emphasizing the Sacraments as the blessings referred to in Genesis 12 rather than a statement about the State of Israel.
1669 Sacramentals derive from the baptismal priesthood: every baptized person is called to be a “blessing,” and to bless. 174 Hence lay people may preside at certain blessings; the more a blessing concerns ecclesial and sacramental life, the more is its administration reserved to the ordained ministry (bishops, priests, or deacons). 175
I have a hard time understanding how Genesis 12: 2-3 supports any position regarding the modern day secular state of Israel. If you want to focus on the Jewish people, The Church empasizes viewing them as in section 1093 of The Catechism (as mentioned above):
1093 In the sacramental economy the Holy Spirit fulfills what was prefigured in the Old Covenant. Since Christ’s Church was “prepared in marvellous fashion in the history of the people of Israel and in the Old Covenant,” 14 the Church’s liturgy has retained certain elements of the worship of the Old Covenant as integral and irreplaceable, adopting them as her own:
-notably, reading the Old Testament;
-praying the Psalms;
-above all, recalling the saving events and significant realities which have found their fulfillment in the mystery of Christ (promise and covenant, Exodus and Passover, kingdom and temple, exile and return).
Continued on next thread…
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davethecatholic
Guest
Continued from the last thread…
As far as the story of Balaam goes, I have a hard time understanding how that can be related to The Church having an official position on the State of Israel or what that position might or should be.
I would be interested in more specifics on this.
Good Luck!
Dave.
As far as the story of Balaam goes, I have a hard time understanding how that can be related to The Church having an official position on the State of Israel or what that position might or should be.
I would be interested in more specifics on this.
Good Luck!
Dave.
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LtTony
Guest
Fidelis: Gotcha. Thanks, Jim
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LtTony
Guest
Dave:
“This is the promise that continues today in Jesus Christ and The Church…this fulfillment of the Davidic promise continues with Jesus and The Church, not modern day Israel. I’m afraid your protestand friends are on the wrong track, there.”
With your help and a visit to Scott Hahn’s website (catholicculture.com is almost here! the light finally went on.
“As far as the story of Balaam goes, I have a hard time understanding how that can be related to The Church having an official position on the State of Israel or what that position might or should be.
I would be interested in more specifics on this.”
I, too, failed to see the relevance. I quickly lost interest in those tracks after the above had sunk in. There haven’t been more specifics. And, as I have now implied, I am no longer inclined to ask for more. You’ve both been of great assistance. Bless you.
“This is the promise that continues today in Jesus Christ and The Church…this fulfillment of the Davidic promise continues with Jesus and The Church, not modern day Israel. I’m afraid your protestand friends are on the wrong track, there.”
With your help and a visit to Scott Hahn’s website (catholicculture.com is almost here! the light finally went on.
“As far as the story of Balaam goes, I have a hard time understanding how that can be related to The Church having an official position on the State of Israel or what that position might or should be.
I would be interested in more specifics on this.”
I, too, failed to see the relevance. I quickly lost interest in those tracks after the above had sunk in. There haven’t been more specifics. And, as I have now implied, I am no longer inclined to ask for more. You’ve both been of great assistance. Bless you.
D
davethecatholic
Guest
You’re very welcome!!
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