Searching for a Church

[Deuteronomy3239]

Hi, I’m a new convert to the Christian faith, two years ago. I believe in One God Yahweh, and his only begotten son Jesus Christ the Messiah. I believe Christ died for our sins and rose from the dead on the third day.
I am very confused as to what denomination to join. Even though I’m no stranger to theology, for the last two years I have been doing my research on Christianity and Islam with the idea to worship God. I decided for Christianity. I come from a Catholic family who don’t know anything about the Bible, the Church and even the basics of Christian belief. They know little of the patriarchs, prophets and apostles. I realize that not all Catholics are unknowledgeable about their faith, but most seem to be. I was baptized as a Catholic and attend a Roman Catholic parish. I would love if someone was to answer my questions. I am not biased towards any denomination and am willing to discuss all of them. (I am a young person, 15, coming to an age as to where I think about the meaning of life and the secrets of this world.) My christian belief started with the reading of the Bible, I came across a video on Youtube on Ecclesiates, which presents quite a depressing idea of the vanity of life, but then concludes with this verse “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.” - Ecc 12:13
It was was appealing to me, the duty and meaning of us, is to worship God, fear Him and keep his commandments. I began reading more of the Bible and became a believer. I stayed Catholic even though I had/have very protestant ideas.
I am now searching for the true authentic Christianity, considering Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism.
I have a few questions for everyone. Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox.

 

[Deuteronomy3239]

Questions for Catholics >

1. How do you explain salvation and justification? Is salvation something that is earned, or is it a free gift of God? Catholics believe that salvation is by faith and works, despite Ephesians 2:8-9 and many other passages of scripture stating that it’s not by works. Sola Fide at first seemed very appealing to me, it made sense to me. Then later I became interested in the idea that in order to get to Heaven we have to keep God’s commandments, because Heaven is Holy and Pure and it cannot be defiled.
2. How do you justify having graven images and icons in your churches when Exodus 20:4 " Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" ?
3. Is prayer not to be offered to God alone? Why pray to saints and ask for intercession? The Holy Bible does not talk about this. Why do we need intercession of the saints, if God is the most gracious, merciful, loving and forgiving? Is it not worship of the saints to pray to him?
4. Why do you revere Mary so much? She is not mentioned in the Bible very much. If she is sinless, does that not make her God? Isn’t only God sinless and pure? If she is perfect and pure, does that not make her God? Do you worship her? Why does it seem to Protestants, Atheists and Muslims that Mary is the center of the Catholic religion instead of Christ?
5. Why is the Old Testament so undermined? I see no statues of the Old Testament saints, no stained glass, no reverence for them, not many feast days dedicated to them. They are not even called saints. Why is that? Does Catholicism simply not care?
6. Why are there canonized saints? Isn’t every holy believer already a saint? Why canonize them? Why give this veneration to some, and not to others?
7. Why do you have tradition along with Scripture? Jesus Christ despised the tradition of the Pharisees. Why is Sola Scriptura a wrong doctrine?
8. What is the scriptural proof of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist?
9. What is the scriptural proof of Papacy? Or is it simply historical and coming from tradition of the Early Church rather than having a proof found in Scripture?

Questions for Protestants >

1. Why do you believe Sola Fide and Sola Gratia? What about James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone?
2. Why do you reject the “Holy Tradition” of the Catholic or Orthodox churches?
3. Why do you reject the Deuterocanonical books and regard them as Apocrypha? How do you know what is the canon of Scripture?
4. Why should I leave Catholicism? What is unbiblical about it?
5. Why do you think that prayer to saints is wrong?

 

[Deuteronomy3239]

Questions for Orthodox >

1. Why do you not believe in the doctrine of the Papacy, when you had the same tradition for 1054 years?
2. What is unbiblical, unhistorical and heretical about the Filioque?
3. Why is Eastern Orthodoxy so cultural and national?
4. Why do you not use musical instruments in your worship even though in the Bible we are continually recommended to praise the Lord with harp, lyre, timbrel, flute, cymbal etc…?
5. [same question for Catholics about the graven images applies here as well]

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

Is salvation something that is earned, or is it a free gift of God?

Salvation is a gift from God. It can never be earned, that is a heresy which was defined and debunked long ago.

Catholics believe that salvation is by faith and works, despite Ephesians 2:8-9 and many other passages of scripture stating that it’s not by works.

We do not believe that. Catholics believe that, as is stated in the Bible, “faith without works is dead.” A soul is transformed by Christ and His love if and only if they allow their faith and God’s love to live in them and act as the instruments of God, doing His will. It’s not so much the works themselves as it is the willingness to do them and the actual doing of them that brings about the change needed for a soul to accept God. We must cooperate with His grace to become new people in Christ.

How do you justify having graven images and icons in your churches

We don’t. Statues of Christian heroes are not graven images whatsoever, that is just propoganda. Our parent site, Catholic Answers, has many articles addressing this.

Is prayer not to be offered to God alone?

Prayer just means “to ask.” It’s antiquated in modern English, but was formerly a common substitute for ask in conversation. By praying to saints, we are simply asking them for their prayers to God on our behalf, the same as asking a friend or relative here on Earth. We are all part of the same body of Christ, one big family. There is no harm in asking a sibling for a word or two on our behalf.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

The Holy Bible does not talk about this.

Yes it does, actually. (Note: Catholics are not Sola Scriptura Christians. “It’s not in the Bible” means pretty much nothing to us.) In Revelation, we see that the Saints in Heaven pray for us on Earth all the time and present prayers to God (I can’t remember the exact passage at this moment). Again, it’s just like asking a friend for prayer.

Why do we need intercession of the saints, if God is the most gracious, merciful, loving and forgiving?

Again, by that logic, there’s no reason to ask anyone for prayers. Perhaps it’s just a creature comfort, but it’s good to have many voices crying out to God for your intention.

Why do you revere Mary so much?

She’s only the mother of God incarnate, no big deal.

If she is sinless, does that not make her God?

Absolutely not. God is not God because He is without sin. God is God because, well, he’s God. Mary is not God in any way, shape, or form, but she is like God in that she follows His will.

Do you worship her?

No. Worship is reserved for God alone. We give to her the highest veneration and honor anyone besides God could be given, but no more. She is the greatest of all saints and the pinnacle of the Christian life, but she is still not God and thus should never be worshiped.

Why does it seem to Protestants, Atheists and Muslims that Mary is the center of the Catholic religion instead of Christ?

Because they either deliberately misrepresent the teaching of the Church or someone did it and they heard such lies from them. If they actually listened to the Mass or our prayer, they would know that Christ is the true center of our lives, period. Mary is honored, but is only a mere part of the Catholic life, not the center of it.

Why is the Old Testament so undermined? I see no statues of the Old Testament saints, no stained glass, no reverence for them, not many feast days dedicated to them. They are not even called saints. Why is that? Does Catholicism simply not care?

Catholics care and there is certainly reverence due to those who came before Christ and lived holy lives. Figures like the Prophets and King David are respected and honored in the Church, but the simple answer is that since sainthood is meant to show us the action of Christ in one’s life, such examples are much easier to find and point out after His coming to Earth.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

Why are there canonized saints? Isn’t every holy believer already a saint? Why canonize them? Why give this veneration to some, and not to others?

All believers in Heaven are saints. Canonized Saints are those who lived lives of heroic virtue, exemplars of the Christian faith and people by whose example we should shape our own life and behavior. It’s a special recognition of their example, and also that their intercession is particularly potent in that miracles have been done by their intercession. It’s a special title for special people, but one we can all obtain if we live as we should.

Why do you have tradition along with Scripture?

Because the Tradition of the Church, its teaching in conjunction with Scripture, forms the whole of the guidance Christ left for mankind. Without it, you only have half the story. Christ established a Church through the first Pope, Peter, and it is this Church we are called to be a part of.

Jesus Christ despised the tradition of the Pharisees.

Because those were man-made traditions. The Pharisees did not have the authority to create new traditions that way. In short, the comparison is not an accurate one.

Why is Sola Scriptura a wrong doctrine?

Because the Bible is insufficient for proving its own validity as Scripture. Without the backing of Tradition to uphold it as inspired, it’s just a book that says it contains the truth. Anyone could write that.

What is the scriptural proof of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist?

“This is my body.” Not “this represents my body” or “this is kinda sorta my body.” Christ was literal. It’s also based on Christ’s speech to the Jews about how they would literally need to consume His flesh to have eternal life. Instead of saying it was metaphorical when many left, Christ doubled down. There is no doubt: The Eucharist is truly Christ’s Body and Blood.

What is the scriptural proof of Papacy?

“You are Petros, and upon this Petros I will build my Church.” Peter was also given a place of primacy among the apostles, from his speaking to the beggar at the temple to his prime role in the Council of Jerusalem in Acts. Peter’s decision is final, and nobody dares dispute his final verdict.

It’s also found across Church tradition, with the decision of Rome being the final word, like the Supreme Court in the US. Once Rome says something, it’s over. I believe Augustine once famously said “Rome has spoken, it is finished.” Pretty succinct.

Don’t think I missed anything. I invite my fellows to correct any mistakes I made, as I believe I’m right in everything but am man and as such fallible.

 

[HeDa]

Welcome to the forum.

All your questions have been answered multiple times in earlier threads with lots of Catholic and non Catholic points of views. I prefer to direct you to www.catholic.com and do a search there as this forum is closing by the end of the year. Catholic Answers has a Youtube channel as well as Facebook page. Check out their bookshop for Why We Are Catholic.

EWTN www.ewtn.net has great programmes on TV, radio etc that you can view or listen to. They are also on Facebook and Youtube. One of the popular programmes is Called to Communion with Dr David Anders which I can highly recommend.

 

[Deuteronomy3239]

I didn’t ask for catholic com I know that website, I’ve read their articles. The purpose of this thread is that I hope to talk to people about these questions.

 

[AlNg]

Questions for Orthodox >

1. [same question for Catholics about the graven images applies here as well]

Graven generally means 3 dimensional. Icons are not graven, but statues are graven.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image

Since icons are two dimensional they are not graven images and thus are not forbidden.

 

[Deuteronomy3239]

I googled the definition
graven
/ɡreɪv/
verb
past participle: graven

1. ARCHAIC
   engrave (an inscription or image) on a surface.
   “marble graved with exquisite flower, human and animal forms”

• LITERARY
  fix (something) indelibly in the mind.
  “the times are graven on my memory”

 

[CTBcin]

“This is my body.” Not “this represents my body” or “this is kinda sorta my body.” Christ was literal. It’s also based on Christ’s speech to the Jews about how they would literally need to consume His flesh to have eternal life. Instead of saying it was metaphorical when many left, Christ doubled down. There is no doubt: The Eucharist is truly Christ’s Body and Blood.

Also, John 6 and the Bread of Life discourse.

 

[OmegaPraetor]

This is an excellent response as it is but I just wanted to offer a little correction. Tagging @Deuteronomy3239 so that they see this.

In Matthew 16, the Lord changed Simon’s name to Peter. This is significant by itself because the only time God had ever changed people’s names is when He was giving them a special mission. Abram to Abraham. Sarai to Sarah. Jacob to Israel. Simon to Peter. None of the other Apostles get this honour.

Now, the Lord said, “You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church.” The name Peter comes from the Greek Petros, but the Greek form of the noun rock is petra. Some Protestants would say that this is proof that St. Peter is not the rock that the Lord is talking about. However, the Lord and the Apostles spoke Aramaic. In Aramaic, the Lord would have said something like this: “You are Kepha and on this kepha I will build my Church.” This is why in some translations of the Bible, St. Peter is called “Cephas”, which is a hellenization of the Aramaic word/name. The High Priest’s name, Caiaphas, also comes from the same word.

Anyway, taken together, this shows unambiguously that the Lord was giving St. Peter a special mission, which is to be the stable rock on whom He will build His Church.

And that’s not even considering the fact that the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and the language of opening and closing are direct allusions to the al-bayith (sort of like a prime minister in the Davidic kingdom) as seen in Isaiah 22.

I hope this helps.

 

[ReaderT]

I googled the definition
graven
/ɡreɪv/
verb
past participle: graven

1. ARCHAIC
   engrave (an inscription or image) on a surface.
   “marble graved with exquisite flower, human and animal forms”

• LITERARY
  fix (something) indelibly in the mind.
  “the times are graven on my memory”

Exactly. Icons are flat (no engraving)

 

[BohemianBrother]

Hello there! I may not be a perfect representation of a typical Protestant (especially since ‘Protestantism’ isn’t a church, but a general term for various churches and movements, some of which have little to do with each other. Therefore there can be no “typical” Protestant).

1. Why do you believe Sola Fide and Sola Gratia? What about James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone?

I believe that:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph. 2, 8-10)

1. I can only be saved through undeserved grace from God (Sola Gratia) - this one should be acceptable to Catholics too.
2. I can only be justified through faith (Sola Fide) - I can attain that grace only through faith. I cannot “earn” it with good works or anything. In other words, I can only be forgiven my sins because of my faith. Works follow our faith, as this faith is a divine gift, leading us to do the good works God prepared for us. (I hope I didn’t mess up the terminology here, I am not a native English speaker)

Now, James is primarily writing about what constitutes this faith. He admonishes those who would think that merely saying “I have faith” and not acting upon it is any good. If someone understands faith to be a mere ‘intelectual assent’, then their faith is as good as the faith of demons. Even if we sometimes stumble, the good works we do and the faith we have are the two sides of one coin - you cannot separate them and claim you have only one part. (I undestand justifying faith to be an active thing, a trust in God and a change of heart.)

• Why do you reject the “Holy Tradition” of the Catholic or Orthodox churches?

I don’t “reject” it per se, but I reject its inerrancy. I find much of Catholic and Orthodox spirituality and theology to be truly enlightening and I pray for the day when we can all share our insights freely among each other. As to why, I just generally reject the whole concept of institutional infallibility and I have problems with blatant insertion of new dogmas (especially the later two Marian dogmas - I have nothing against them being a theological opinion. However, you can clearly see the evolution of the discussion on them in the Catholic Church from the middle ages to the 19th century, and that itself kind of proves that they aren’t a clear part of the Deposit of Faith.)

I believe the Church should only establish binding doctrine on the basis of Scriptural teachings, clarified and explained by tradition.

cont.

 

[BohemianBrother]

• Why do you reject the Deuterocanonical books and regard them as Apocrypha? How do you know what is the canon of Scripture?

I don’t see the canon as a black and white, inspired or worthless thing. The deuterocanonicals are books that were sometimes disputed, and we simply aren’t as sure of them being inspired as we are of the protocanonical books, so we should be more careful when drawing dogmatic conclusions from them. I personally use a 73 book myself (I love the Maccabees) and I plan on getting the oldest Czech Protestant Bible translation, which includes 79 books. (And I think we Protestants should read those books more!)

Why should I leave Catholicism? What is unbiblical about it?

I don’t believe that there is anything fundamentally wrong about Catholicism, except for sometimes overcomplicated teachings and a bit of rigid dogmatism, but that can happen to any Christian communion. Go and be a good Catholic!

Why do you think that prayer to saints is wrong?

No, but I think it is generally unnecessary. If it is helpful for you in your spiritual fight, then go for it. (Although I know a few people who maybe take it too far. As long as you understand that God is above all this, then it is fine for me.)

 

[Kei]

Capta(name removed by moderator)rudeman already addressed the topics well, but I would like to add:

We accept God’s free gift of salvation.

God explicitly demanded the construction of “graven images”, like the Cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant. When the snakes were biting Israel, did not Moses have a metal snake made that brought healing to the people, per God?

We interpret the Commandment against graven things not to be against any and all artwork or engraving, but against idolatry/idol making, etc.

Being sinless does not make one God. The good angels are sinless, for instance. Those in Heaven will be sinless.

We love the Old Testament and the OT saints! I don’t know why you think it’s undermined.

Tradition of men vs Sacred Tradition. Scripture makes a clear distinction, even telling to “hold fast” to the tradition, whether by word or written down. Sacred Tradition involves the truths of the Faith as carried down for thousands of years. To me, “sola scriptura” is a tradition of men, formed 1500 years after the Protestant rejection of Councils (I believe it was specifically first really publicly “formulated” when Luther was cornered in a debate).

Don’t just take whatever preachers say for granted! There are lots of misrepresentations of the Church and plenty of “proof texting” to go around. A source can obviously be biased. In fact, many so easily impute various errors onto the texts, I’d rather Catholics not watch ie Protestant preachers (though even Catholic preachers can sometimes be mistaken, it’s less likely).
Though I understand you’re still searching.

 

[ReaderT]

Orthodox Christian here, going to try to answer your questions charitably, realizing I’m on a Catholic forum and have to be a good guest:

• Why do you not believe in the doctrine of the Papacy, when you had the same tradition for 1054 years?

We’re of the opinion that it wasn’t part of the Early Church / Early Fathers’ heritage. We’re fine with the Pope being first among equals but not Papal supremacy.

We would point to the strict rule in the Canons that there can’t be more than one Bishop per city. If the Pope has universal jurisdiction, he would essentially be a second hierarch in every city.

The Fathers also left us three ranks of ordination: deacon, priest, and Bishop. If the Pope has more authority and power than other Bishops, he’s basically a “super-Bishop”, a quasi “4th rank”.

The Early Church also had a clear history of deciding issues by binding Ecumenical Councils (which, by the way, the Pope never attended in person). If the Pope is the only person with power, then Ecumenical Councils would seem to be arbitrary.

• What is unbiblical, unhistorical and heretical about the Filioque?

We would point to the fact that it was never part of the Original Creed. In fact one Pope in the 800s (Leo III) explicitly rejected the Filioque and engraved the whole Nicene Creed on silver plates (without filioque) adding: “These words I, Leo, have set down for the love and as a safeguard of the orthodox faith (Haec Leo posui amore et cautela fidei orthodoxae).”

Orthodox would also say that filioque distorts Triadology by making the Spirit a subordinate member of the Trinity. Traditional Triadology consists in the notion that for any given trait, it must be either common to all Persons of the Trinity or unique to one of them. Thus, Fatherhood is unique to the Father, while begottenness is unique to the Son, and procession unique to the Spirit. Godhood, however, is common to all, as is eternality, uncreatedness, and so forth. Positing that something can be shared by two Persons (i.e., being the source of the Spirit’s procession) but not the other is to elevate those two Persons at the expense of the other. Thus, the balance of unity and diversity is destroyed, and then there are certain “grades” of Godhood in the Trinity.

Regarding unbiblical: We’d mention John 15:26: “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.” Thus, Christ never describes the Holy Spirit as proceeding from himself, but only mentions the Spirit’s procession in terms of the Father.

• Why is Eastern Orthodoxy so cultural and national?

In the US and Canada it is “cultural” because immigrant groups brought their clergy over with them, and they started conducting services in their cultural languages (Greek, Russian, Ukrainian, etc.). Hence the existence of “Greek” Orthodox churches outside Greece. But that is not a normal (or canonical) situation; there should only be one church per country - there should be only an “American Orthodox Church” in America.

 

[Deuteronomy3239]

I don’t take the words of the preachers for granted. I do this thing where I sometimes argue from a point of view that is not mine just to see where it takes me. I see a lot of this arguments from all three positions in online debates between Protestants and Catholics and Catholics and Orthodox

 

[Kei]

I did not mean to imply that you were, but meant to warn against it in general.

I forgot to add that St Paul often talks about works of the law, but certain people take his talking about works of the law (of Moses) as if he were talking about all works or good works in general.

Depending what you mean by “online debates” it may not be the best way to get the best of all sides…

 

[AlNg]

I can only be justified through faith (Sola Fide) - I can attain that grace only through faith. I cannot “earn” it with good works or anything.

I don’t think so. Matthew 25: 31-46. I think acts of charity and good works can save a person.