Second Sunday of Advent and Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

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FrDavid96 said:
Dan, the reason why not, is because those 2 seperate obligations apply to two seperate days. Just because the liturgical time for those 2 days overlap (as opposed to being the same day). It is 2 different obligations. It is an obligation to attend 2 Masses. It is one obligation to attend a Mass on Sunday, and one obligation to attend a Mass on Monday.

One plus one equals two. One plus one can never equal one.

As for the retreat, it is how I tried to explain it to you earlier. The authority that imposes the obligation to attend a retreat has the authority to permit you to count one retreat as two retreats. He likewise has the authority to say “you don’t have to do a retreat at all” The one who imposes the law has the authority to dispense from it. That is the difference.
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Hello again Father,

Your speaking about 1+1 reminds me of a class I had years ago. In speaking about the Trinity, the professor wrote on the board 1+1+1=3. So, are there three Gods? No, because 1x1x1=1. Addition isn’t always the proper perspective, I guess is the point.

As far as the retreat issue–the same authority has also legislated that we are to attend Mass. That is not divine law. The divine law is to keep holy the “Lord’s day.” Ecclesiastical law has said how we are to do it. But, any pastor can dispense from this obligation. Regarding the retreat, I have never heard of anyone asking for a dispensation from making a retreat in that year when he was being ordained and made another retreat. It is generally assumed, as far as I know, that there is no obligation for him to then make the retreat as defined in the Constitutions of the Institute.

Dan
 
benedictgal said:
The reason why the Monday abrogation does not kick for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception is because she is the patroness of the United States under that title, so, it is our patronal feast.
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I understand, that’s what I put the word certain holy days in there. I could have worded that a little clearer.

Also, just for clarification for others:
When I said “one must attend one Mass for each liturgical day,” I meant one on Sunday’s liturgical day and one on the Immaculate Conception’s liturgical day for a total of two Masses.
 
Oy! My head is spinning. :whacky:

As a new Catholic (converting), all I can say is… wow. Wouldn’t it be easier to just go to two masses than to continue to debate this issue ad infinitum? I think I’ve spent more than the time I would have spent going to Mass, just reading all of this analytical “hoo-ha”. :rolleyes:

(Actually, If I’d known you all were such obsessive-compulsives intellectualizers, I probably would have come on board a lot sooner. :p)

Ummm… forgive me if I’m wrong (I’m still very new to all this), but isn’t a “Holy Day Obligation” supposed to be of the utmost and highest priority above everything else?

I had all sorts of plans and “obligations” for this evening (being so new, I just discovered this obligation at Mass yesterday). My parish offers only an 8:30am and a 5:30pm Mass today and I work from 8:30am to 5:00pm with an hour commute each way. I also had a community volunteer commitment from 6pm to 7pm tonight. I just told my boss that I had to leave early and then rescheduled the volunteer activity. Period.

We all have free will, right? I *choose *to fulfill my obligations because not to do so is a sin and sin causes suffering. It seems pretty simple to me… I don’t want to suffer. **If I’m not sure if one Mass meets that obligation, then I’m certainly not going to sit around and debate it, I’ll just go to two!!

** :doh2:
 
Raqui said:
As a new Catholic (converting), all I can say is… wow. Wouldn’t it be easier to just go to two masses than to continue to debate this issue ad infinitum?
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Who says we can’t both argue and go to the masses?🙂
 
benedictgal said:
Even when December 8th falls on a Sunday, the obligation is transferred to Monday, Decembr 9th (universally, I believe).
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This is inaccurate.

When December 8th falls on a Sunday, the celebration of the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception is translated to Monday, December 9th (universally, I believe). BUT: In 2002, even in the United States, the obligation did not translate!
Dunno what will happen in 2013.

tee
 
Something to keep in mind … when these Canons were written, the Internet was not publicly available like it is now. Lay access to Church documents was far more limited than it is now (says a man who has the GIRM bookmarked in his web browser).

I doubt the Church wrote the Canons envisioning lay people looking up the Canons on their computers and interpreting them in such a way as to find loopholes. Fifteen, twenty years ago, the pastor interpreted the Canons for the faithful, and when in question, the bishop interpreted the Canons for the pastors… something that actually happened in the OP’s situation.

Yet, here we sit, trying to interpret them ourselves, or place judgments on them.

You must attend Mass for Sunday. You must attend Mass for Monday. Although the liturgical days overlap and the Canons do not expressly forbid a “two-fer” those who have the authority to interpret the Canons have said that you cannot have a “two-fer.”

Go to Mass for Sunday and for Monday. Two separate Masses.

As for me… pray that this nasty storm doesn’t keep me from Mass or that I possess the wisdom to not go if the weather is genuinely too bad.
 
tee_eff_em said:
While, of course, I submit myself to the direction of my pastors, and it is not ordinarily a hardship for me to assist at Mass, I wonder if the plurality of opinions on this matter creates enough doubt that Canon 14 comes into play?

🤷
tee
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tee,
Canon 14 would not apply, because there is no “reasonable” doubt about it. Two days means two obligations.
 
AHapka said:
I understand your feelings. But to put it in perspective, I work most Sundays. The vigil Mass allows me to attend 52 Sunday Masses a year instead of 10-12. Not to diminish your opinion, but it really does help a lot of us.
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That’s what I mean about “I understand it” The part that bothers me is the fact that we live in a society that makes it necessary for the Church to allow for the vigil Masses. I know it helps a lot of people. No doubt. And, for that, I am grateful to the Church for allowing it, and I don’t begrudge anyone who attends them. Please don’t think that’s what I meant.
 
FrDavid,
Is everyone who disagrees with you “unreasonable”? Including a trained canon lawyer (tee’s Pastor)? I think you’re on shaky ground here, and should be less dogmatic.
 
minor said:
FrDavid,
Is everyone who disagrees with you “unreasonable”? Including a trained canon lawyer (tee’s Pastor)? I think you’re on shaky ground here, and should be less dogmatic.
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Minor,

Again, one plus one equals two.

A person who says one plus one equals one is not being “reasonable.”

I am not being dogmatic. It’s simple math.
 
Prior to the internet, this conversation would have gone:

Fr.: “Monday is a Holy Day of Obligation. A Vigil will be offered Sunday at 7:00. You must attend a Mass for Sunday and a Mass for Immaculate Conception.”

Parishoner: “Father, if I attend the Vigil on Sunday night, won’t that count for both? It’s still Sunday, after all.”

Fr.: “Sure, you can do that, but you’ll go to hell because you would have willfully skipped an obligation.”

Parishoner: Gulp! “OK, Father. Sorry I asked. I’ll be at two Masses.”
 
FrDavid
I accept the mathematical equation, but not its application to this situation. I have presented my argument and consider it quite reasonable - at least as reasonable as yours. It seems others more qualified than I concur with me. Surely it is discourteous to dismiss us as unreasonable? You earlier insisted there were “two precepts” but now you seem to have accepted there is only one. Now you insist there are “two obligations”. Perhaps you will change your mind about that aswell. At least there is a reasonable doubt about it.
 
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