Secular culture, pagan weddings, childbirth and attitudes

[strngrnrth]

I live in a very liberal, atheist/pantheist neighborhood in a very liberal, atheist/pantheist town in a very liberal, atheist/pantheist part of the USA, and my old friends are still important to me. When someone invites me to a pagan wedding where I may be expected to take part in their religious ceremonies, I decline with congratulations. When they have kids, I express joy, though few are married first. These are no-brainers for me. But the continuum is confusing. From group marriage (several bisexual males and females believing they are all spouses of one another), to swingers and people who believe in ritual sex or casual sex, to committed homosexual couples, to people cohbitating with no intent of marriage, to married couples who have a system of “openness” for the spouse with the stronger sex drive, to married and faithful pairs who had their children before the wedding and feel they did the right thing, to people who pretty much did it right until they had to have the “talk” with their kids and told them anything goes, they all ask my approval. I want to show that I appreciate the degrees to which they are trying to do the right thing. But where does that become condoning sin? If someone says, help me pack for my weekend with my lover, my husband needs the time alone, and I say, I can’t help with that, but I wish you a safe drive, I feel absurd. If someone says, my “same-sex” partner and I want a child, I say, well, kids are great, but maybe the child needs a father and mother, I get an earful. Where do I draw the line? Should I just move away from this environment until I have things straighter in my head? Or did God put us few Christians in these circles ofr a reason?

 

[Cari]

Whew! I don’t know how you don’t feel constantly spiritually bruised and emotionally drained each and every day living in that sort of environment.

I know people love to point out that Jesus “hung out” with sinners of all sorts, implying that we shouldn’t ever practice discernment in our social circle, but let’s face it- Jesus hung out with REPENTANT sinners. He hung out with people who had sinned, repented, asked forgiveness, and changed their life around. We are told to be a light in the darkness, but we’re also told to guard against people who don’t want to see that light (something about pearls before swine and all that).

Why are these friends always asking you to give blessings to/participate in activities that are contrary to your religion and morals? Do you constantly ask them to come to Mass/take RCIA/go to Confession?

I don’t know. Your whole situation is making my head hurt. I’m sorry!

 

[strngrnrth]

Why are these friends always asking you to give blessings to/participate in activities that are contrary to your religion and morals?

I like to hope it’s because they secretly feel I have some wisdom and knowledge they could benefit from. Actually that keeps me going a lot.
I know there are some members here who also live in liberal areas. Maybe they’d share what they do.

 

[Caesar517]

Wow, that sounds like a spiritually dangerous place. Personally, I would get out of there as fast as I could. I certainly wouldn’t want to try to raise children in that enviornment (if that applies to you).

You said you “get an earful” when you make a moral suggestion. It sounds like they don’t want to see the light, frankly.

 

[crenfro]

Where do I draw the line? Should I just move away from this environment until I have things straighter in my head? Or did God put us few Christians in these circles ofr a reason?

:hug3:

Please stay close to God, whatever you do. Don’t endanger your own salvation.

Thank you for such a lovely, caring post.

 

[Swan]

I live in a very liberal, atheist/pantheist neighborhood in a very liberal, atheist/pantheist town in a very liberal, atheist/pantheist part of the USA, and my old friends are still important to me. When someone invites me to a pagan wedding where I may be expected to take part in their religious ceremonies, I decline with congratulations. When they have kids, I express joy, though few are married first. These are no-brainers for me. But the continuum is confusing. From group marriage (several bisexual males and females believing they are all spouses of one another), to swingers and people who believe in ritual sex or casual sex, to committed homosexual couples, to people cohbitating with no intent of marriage, to married couples who have a system of “openness” for the spouse with the stronger sex drive, to married and faithful pairs who had their children before the wedding and feel they did the right thing, to people who pretty much did it right until they had to have the “talk” with their kids and told them anything goes, they all ask my approval. I want to show that I appreciate the degrees to which they are trying to do the right thing. But where does that become condoning sin? If someone says, help me pack for my weekend with my lover, my husband needs the time alone, and I say, I can’t help with that, but I wish you a safe drive, I feel absurd. If someone says, my “same-sex” partner and I want a child, I say, well, kids are great, but maybe the child needs a father and mother, I get an earful. Where do I draw the line? Should I just move away from this environment until I have things straighter in my head? Or did God put us few Christians in these circles ofr a reason?

Thought you might be interested in some thoughts from a liberal. First, let me say that I don’t approve of open relationships with multiple partners and I think the swinging thing is disgusting. But I don’t have a problem with cohabitation and gay relationships. I’ve done my share of cohabitating - I’m bipolar and had a long history of codependence. People often do things we don’t understand or approve of and we tend to judge them as if they had our experiences, emotions, etc., instead of trying to understand what might have made them behave the way they do. Like I said, I’m bipolar. Sometimes I’m not real pleasant, sometimes I’m so depressed that I’d just quit breathing if it weren’t automatic, sometimes my mood swings cause me to do things that are hard to understand. I know from experience how difficult it can be to explain things to the satisfaction of a listener who has not shared my emotional and mental challenges. This is true for us all and we need to remember that before we dismiss people as hopeless sinners. Most important to me is that Jesus DID remember that. It was his unconditional love, his understanding of the pain of others, his compassion and mercy that made people gravitate to him. They KNEW he really cared. Maybe your friends know you really care too. My advice, you sound like a really good person and your example is one we can all admire. Loving these folks will go a lot farther toward enabling them to see the love of Jesus than writing them off se hopeless sinners ever will.

 

[Dameedna]

As a secular agnostic person, I have NEVER been bombarded with the nonsense you have just claimed.

Everyone is having sex with everyone, everyone wants to just make babies with no thought to their future, and omg, there is Gay sex.

I suspect your post is less about honesty and more about your own personal need for recognition of your “goodness” within the catholic community.

If this life even exists, I doubt you see anything wrong with these poeple at all you just want to stand on the higher moral ground.

Gogo. people who teach lies about non-believers. Great way to make the world a better place.

 

[Simon_X]

I can’t say that I’ve seen quite the level of the secular liberalism the OP has described. But, as a practicing Catholic with a wife and 2 teens, I find a lot of of the in your-face-tolerate-my-life style stuff very offensive (and sad). No, I am not perfect or ever pretend to think I am. But there is a lot of Secular stuff that I find morally wrong and don’t think I have to support.

Where I work and live (pretty conservative place), I know lots of cohabiting folks, many folks on 2nd or more marriages, many single parents (never married and don’t see a reason why they need to be), ect… I support as much as I can the good I see in all, but I am not going to say whatever lifestyle one wants is perfectly okay.

With all being said, the crazy thing is, I do like and consider these people as friends.

I am I wrong on any of these counts?

 

[strngrnrth]

As a secular agnostic person, I have NEVER been bombarded with the nonsense you have just claimed.

Then you don’t live here.

Everyone is having sex with everyone, everyone wants to just make babies with no thought to their future

Not what I said. and of course I never said ALL unbelievers live that way, just some of my neighbors and old friends. You’re the one making stuff up.

Gogo.

What does that mean?

people who teach lies about non-believers. Great way to make the world a better place.

Uh, yeah, that’s it. Non-believers don’t have different sexual mores at all. I guess around half the people I ever met including me are an optical illusion.
Thanks for the laugh. It takes the tension off.
Seriously, thanks to all who replied, and Swan, your perspective was helpful. I was very recently one of these people myself, which is why i empathize and know them, and I have cohabitated and much worse myself, but in a way that’s what makes it hard. Since livingtogether is a big step closer to doing the right thing than just experimenting and breaking boundaries on purpose, the issue comes up of whether to congratulate people on getting serious or hold a hard line and sqay they ought to get married.
When I told my ex-bf I wanted to break up because I became a Christian, he asked if born-again girls like sex. I said it was a moot point since I wasn’t married. He took a minute to figure out what I was talking about.
This is my home but sometimes I feel like going almost anywhere else before my head explodes.

 

[the_phoenix]

If you have to guard your tongue around these people, they are not your friends.

I have a best friend who happens to be a Liberal Democrat, pro-choice, Methodist. Meanwhile, I am the exact opposite … Conservative Republican, pro-life, Catholic.

I was once invited to a social function sponsored by my friend’s church. While there, the subject of politics arose at the table. I didn’t bring it up, but felt that if everyone ELSE was welcome to share their opinion, so was I. So I did. I stated that I would not vote for a particular candidate because of my pro-life position. You could have heard a pin drop. A sudden shocked silence fell. A Methodist female elder at the table who was in favor of a pro-choice candidate started taking me to task until she discovered that I was willing to continue politely defending my view and that I was not intimidated by her religious title of “elder.”

My best friend remains my best friend, despite the fact that I quite publicly went against each and every person at our table. A lesser person would have ended the friendship immediately.

~~ the phoenix

 

[Et_Cetera]

Don’t judge, realize that we are all different, and be as kind and helpful as possible to your friends.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I understand that Tom Monahan is setting up a Catholic town in Florida some where so that conservative like minded Catholics can live amongst their own and not be tainted by all the rest of us sinners. You might want to check into moving there.

I mean that seriously. If it is causing you such pain. I’ ve never been taught that going to someone’s wedding though not in the catholic Church was illegal and bad, I never was taught that helping someone pack was sinful even if they intended to do something I might not approve of. I guess all the parishes I’ve been in didn’t specialize in training people to advize everyone of their sin. I was taught to spend more time working on my own. Guess you grew up in some other kind of parish that I did.

Oddly a TV evangelist, just reported the shameful state of affairs that there are more divorces among Christians than “secularists.” Thats certainly shocking and gives one pause.

 

[wapsi]

Should I just move away from this environment until I have things straighter in my head?

That actually was my first thought - you need to move here to Iowa .

When someone invites me to a pagan wedding where I may be expected to take part in their religious ceremonies, I decline with congratulations. When they have kids, I express joy, though few are married first. These are no-brainers for me.

I am glad you were able to work that out without offending folks.

But the continuum is confusing. From group marriage (several bisexual males and females believing they are all spouses of one another), to swingers and people who believe in ritual sex or casual sex, to committed homosexual couples, to people cohbitating with no intent of marriage, to married couples who have a system of “openness” for the spouse with the stronger sex drive, to married and faithful pairs who had their children before the wedding and feel they did the right thing, to people who pretty much did it right until they had to have the “talk” with their kids and told them anything goes, they all ask my approval.

They obviously value your opinion as a friend. You are a good person.

I want to show that I appreciate the degrees to which they are trying to do the right thing. But where does that become condoning sin? If someone says, help me pack for my weekend with my lover, my husband needs the time alone, and I say, I can’t help with that, but I wish you a safe drive, I feel absurd.

Yes, this is tough. It is hard for me to evaluate, since as a guy no one asks me to help them pack.

If someone says, my “same-sex” partner and I want a child, I say, well, kids are great, but maybe the child needs a father and mother, I get an earful. Where do I draw the line?

I think both the packing and the gay parenthood dilemmas are opportunities to be a friend and a gentle witness to the faith. Could you, during your conversations, express confusion and concern in a non-judgemental way? For example, in the prospective parenthood situation it might be possible to talk about the difficulties of child rearing, congratulate them for having two people to share the difficulty, but also some concern that the child may lack both a male and female role model? Perhaps they have thought of it already and have a plan to bring in a good friend to regularly mentor the child. Ask if they have thought of anything like that. If the time seems right (and only if), you can mention that we believe that men and women are complementary and need one another to be whole and this is why children need a male and female role model - to get a holistic understanding of the world. Otherwise, simply reminding them that you are Catholic (they can fill in the pieces of the puzzle) but also a good friend, may be enough.

 

[strngrnrth]

Could you, during your conversations, express confusion and concern in a non-judgemental way? For example, in the prospective parenthood situation it might be possible to talk about the difficulties of child rearing, congratulate them for having two people to share the difficulty, but also some concern that the child may lack both a male and female role model? Perhaps they have thought of it already and have a plan to bring in a good friend to regularly mentor the child. Ask if they have thought of anything like that. If the time seems right (and only if), you can mention that we believe that men and women are complementary and need one another to be whole and this is why children need a male and female role model - to get a holistic understanding of the world. Otherwise, simply reminding them that you are Catholic (they can fill in the pieces of the puzzle) but also a good friend, may be enough.

Good way to see it. I guess it’s getting tongue-tied that makes it hard. SOmetimes the right answer seems so obvious once it’s right there in black and white but so far away when you’re trying to inhale.