sedevacantism and indefectability of the Church

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icxc nika:
I was simply asking a question. I wonder why you are soooo defensive.
Dear icxc nika,

I’m defending the truth here. It’s not personal.

[Edited by Moderator]
The Orthodox church has NEVER been considered heretical by the RCC.
I notice you don’t address the charge of schism…do you deny that the Roman Church considers you schismatic?

After Vatican I, I believe that schism became heresy…as the primacy of the Roman Pontiff was defined in that Council.

[Edited by Moderator]

[Edited by Moderator]
Furthermore, the Orthodox have always been Catholic, whether or not you believe otherwise.
Really? What is your proof for that one?
I am simply asking a question in regards to the laying of hands, and if any SV bishops are claimed to have the proper ordination, and if so, which of the SV bishops.
The Catholic Church holds the correct position. It matters not what a schismatic church thinks about it.
Laslty is it the opinion of the non SV Catholics that the SV bishops do have the proper ordiniation, if it is true that the SV’s claim to have the laying of the hands.
It matters only what the Church says about it…if they are validly ordained according to the norms of sacramental theology…then they are valid Bishops.

Gorman

P.S.
PIUS IX [Letter Jam vos omnes, September 13, 1868, to Protestants and other non-Catholics]Now, anyone who wishes to examine with care and to meditate on the condition of the different religious societies divided among themselves and separated from the Catholic Church…will easily be convinced that no one of these societies nor all of them together in any way constitute or are that one Catholic Church which Our Lord founded and established and which He willed to create. Nor is it possible, either, to say that these societies are either a member or part of this same Church, since they are visibly separated from Catholic unity.
PIUS IX [Encyclical Quartus supra, January 6, 1873, to the Armenians]He who abandons the Chair of Peter on which the Church is founded, is falsely persuaded that he is in the Church, since he is already a sinner and a schismatic who raises up a chair against the one Chair of Peter, from which flow to all others the sacred rights of communion.
PIUS IX [Encyclical Etsi multa, November 21, 1873]The very first elements of Catholic doctrine teach that no one can be considered a legitimate bishop if he is not united by the communion of faith and charity with the Rock on which the Church of Christ is built, if he does not adhere to the Supreme Pastor to whom are confided all the sheep so that he may feed them, and if he is not bound to him who has the office of confirming his brethren who are in the world.
LEO XIII [Letter Officio sanctissimo, December 22, 1887, to the
Bishops of Bavaria] But he who in his manner of thinking and acting would separate himself from his shepherd and from his Sovereign Pastor, the Roman Pontiff, has no further bond with Christ: “He that heareth you, heareth me, he that despiseth you, despiseth me” (Luke X: 16). Whoever is estranged from Christ does not reap; he scatters.
 
There has never been a time when the RCC has claimed that the Orthodox do not hold valid ordination ( or any other sacrement for that matter ) either.
Dear icxc nika,

I never said this or even implied it and I think you know that. It wasn’t even being discussed.

Why have you brought it up now?

Gorman
 
Dear icxc nika,

I’m defending the truth here. It’s not personal.
ditto
I notice you don’t address the charge of schism…do you deny that the Roman Church considers you schismatic?
Of course the RCC considers the EO churchs as schismatics, this has nothing to do with any vailidity in the sacrements.

You will not find a valid Catholic source that has taught that the EO churchs do not have valid sacrements or ordinations.
After Vatican I, I believe that schism became heresy…as the primacy of the Roman Pontiff was defined in that Council.
No such heresy. It has always been schismatic. Heresies were reserved for the protestants.
Perhaps you should save your “thumbsup”…because it doesn’t apply here at all. 🙂
Since your point was that the EO were considered by the RCC to be schismatics and heretics, the emoticon applies. Your facts are not in line with the teachings of the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church holds the correct position. It matters not what a schismatic church thinks about it.
Yes, but what is the Roman Catholic church if not for the unity with the Roman Pontiff. Where is the current Pope, if not in Rome, that validates the statements that you make?

Referencing my “schismatic” church in regards to pointing out these issues does not bolster your argument.
It matters only what the Church says about it…if they are validly ordained according to the norms of sacramental theology…then they are valid Bishops.
Please give a reference for this novel and convenient notion. It sounds a lot like what the protestants might say.

So you would state that essential element of laying of the hands has now become optional in regards to ordinations. I guess it worked out well for 1900 some odd years, but the SV really don’t need this neccesary element of tradition anymore. What else can you change as far as canon law goes without a Pope?
 
Dear icxc nika,

I never said this or even implied it and I think you know that. It wasn’t even being discussed.

Why have you brought it up now?

Gorman
If you see post 15, you will see how I felt blind sided by your remarks.

I was asking about the ordination of the bishops in the SV Catholics churches.

I was simply expressing my intrest in this matter because the Orthodox and the Catholics have a difference in understanding regarding the revocation of the sacrement of Holy Orders.

The Catholics state that once the soul has ordination, and can not be removed. The Orthodox have a different take.

Thus, I was asking about validly ordained SV bishops prior to Vat II. This would bolster elements of the SV argument.

This is what I was asking, and you replied in kind with post #15.
 
Old Rite? The TLM isn’t a separate Rite from the NO.
I wasn’t referring to the TLM. I was referring to the Priestly Ordination Rite & Bp. Episcopal Anointing (both sacramental in nature) that existed prior to the New versions issued in about 1970. Therefore “old” meant PREVII Orders.
 
Not only have there been personal attacks, but this thread has veered off topic. If you wish to discuss Orthodox/Catholic issues, please start a new thread in the Non-Catholic Religions forum.
 
Of course the see of Rome is vacant every time a pope passes away and there have been times in the past when there were mainstream antipopes and also when the See was vacant for a few years IIRC. But modern-day “sedevacantists” claim that we’ve had antipopes for decades, antipopes who are almost universally accepted as true popes by Catholics. Wouldn’t that be contrary to the doctrine of the indefectibility of the Church?

Catholic Encyclopedia

*Among the prerogatives conferred on His Church by Christ is the gift of indefectibility. By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men. The gift of indefectibility is expressly promised to the Church by Christ, in the words in which He declares that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It is manifest that, could the storms which the Church encounters so shake it as to alter its essential characteristics and make it other than Christ intended it to be, the gates of hell, i.e. the powers of evil, would have prevailed. It is clear, too, that could the Church suffer substantial change, it would no longer be an instrument capable of accomplishing the work for which God called it in to being. He established it that it might be to all men the school of holiness. This it would cease to be if ever it could set up a false and corrupt moral standard. He established it to proclaim His revelation to the world, and charged it to warn all men that unless they accepted that message they must perish everlastingly. Could the Church, in defining the truths of revelation err in the smallest point, such a charge would be impossible. No body could enforce under such a penalty the acceptance of what might be erroneous. By the hierarchy and the sacraments, Christ, further, made the Church the depositary of the graces of the Passion. Were it to lose either of these, it could no longer dispense to men the treasures of grace.

The gift of indefectibility plainly does not guarantee each several part of the Church against heresy or apostasy. The promise is made to the corporate body. Individual Churches may become corrupt in morals, may fall into heresy, may even apostatize. Thus at the time of the Mohammedan conquests, whole populations renounced their faith; and the Church suffered similar losses in the sixteenth century. But the defection of isolated branches does not alter the character of the main stem. The society of Jesus Christ remains endowed with all the prerogatives bestowed on it by its Founder. Only to One particular Church is indefectibility assured, viz. to the See of Rome. To Peter, and in him to all his successors in the chief pastorate, Christ committed the task of confirming his brethren in the Faith (Luke 22:32); and thus, to the Roman Church, as Cyprian says, “faithlessness cannot gain access” [Ep. lv (lix), ad Cornelium). The various bodies that have left the Church naturally deny its indefectibility. Their plea for separation rests in each case on the supposed fact that the main body of Christians has fallen so far from primitive truth, or from the purity of Christian morals, that the formation of a separate organization is not only desirable but necessary. Those who are called on to defend this plea endeavour in various ways to reconcile it with Christ’s promise. Some, as seen above (VII), have recourse to the hypothesis of an indefectible invisible Church. The Right Rev. Charles Gore of Worcester, who may be regarded as the representative of high-class Anglicanism, prefers a different solution. In his controversy with Canon Richardson, he adopted the position that while the Church will never fail to teach the whole truth as revealed, yet “errors of addition” may exist universally in its current teaching (see Richardson, Catholic Claims, Appendix). Such an explanation deprives Christ’s words of all their meaning. A Church which at any period might conceivably teach, as of faith, doctrines which form no part of the deposit could never deliver her message to the world as the message of God. Men could reasonably urge in regard to any doctrine that it might be an “error of addition”.*

newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm*

Many do not understand sedevacanism. There are sedevacanists who are not true. I for one have studied my history and the western schism and the messages of Fatima and la Salette. The answer is there. Jesus prophesied that the abomination of desolation will stand in the holy place= the new mass which blasphemes God which is a false worship, and a New False Catholic Church with new teachings which are not of Christ(but of the devil) to overshadow the true Catholic Church and eclipse it.
The seat of Peter will become the seat of the Antichrist.(the devil). Which means now the devil reigns and calls himself Pope.
Which means many are in danger of loosing their salvation.
It is the truth that many Catholics do not want to accept.
But Jesus said there is hope. The Church will never defect from this he promised his guidance from the gates of hell. Our churches are taken ( like closed) but that doesn’t mean we loose our faith and defect from it. One should look at the history of the Western Schism. The same thing happened only now it is worse. Read the Bible book of maccabees( not found in false bibles like king james or other protestant). This same thing happened in the old testament. Jesus allows this to test the people , their faith how strong and faithful they would remain to him. Also to punish the people for their loss of faith. Just look around you, there is no faith left. Will Jesus find faith when he returns. It’s all up to you.

Sedevacanism= true catholic
 
Would you have us believe that because there was a schism in the 13th century, that it is ok to believe the papacy is vacant? Even in that rare case, it was NOT vacated, for there was a lawful pope on Peter’s Chair co-existing with the anti-pope. You are using an example from an extraordinary circumstance in history source and attempting to apply it here in order to gain sympathy. This is a poor debate tactic, and one I have no admiration for.

I realize you are just quoting what “they” believe, and it would have been interesting to hear your take on it. As it stands, it appears you concur. May I ask on what sedevacantist website this information is being circulated?
You are not Catholic and a good example of that Catholic who’s been tested by Jesus to see if you would still keep the faith. God letting an anti-pope take the chair is a test. Why is it so easy for me to understand and not for you. Because you are of bad will and don’t want to accept the truth. You are stubborn and full of pride. Just like an anti-pope.
Let me remind you or maybe you don’t even know that TRUE POPES in all the history of the Church have quoted EX-CATHEDRA from the papal chair THAT A Pope who teaches heresy: looses his office, looses his authority(no longer protected by holy ghost)ipso facto. UNTIL, he repents. A good example of this is St. Peter. He denied Jesus 3 times. He repented. Jesus prayed for him because he knew he would. Ben the 16 went into a synogoque and denied Jesus. He didnot convert any jews like Peter did, doing miracles and preeching that they had to convert to the Messaih, that he has arrived… and come into the new everlasting convenant which was prophesied in the scriptures. If they did not believe, they would be condemned. Proof of this just look at Mark 16: 16 . Jesus said they had to be reborn again in baptism and believe. He who does not believe and baptised is condemned.(to hell). This new everlasting covenant is prophesied in the scriptures by the prophets , came first for the jews and then the rest of the nations. Judaism was a shadow of what was coming in the future after the coming of the Messaih, his death , ressurection and his ascension. Judaism was not universal and eternal. Passover is a shadow of the Eucharist . Jesus the new everlasting Lamb. The tabernacle and the sacrifice of the lamb in the synogogue. Jesus is now in the tabernacle and his body replaces the sacrificial lamb. Jews went to the rabbi (priest) to be pardoned by God and for advice. There was a jewish hierarchy like we have the priests, bishops, etc…all a shadow of the eternal covenant that was coming.
Those internet sites that this information comes from are there for a reason. God uses many ways to make his people see the light and to make them see. It doesn’t matter from what source we get it from. We have to be reminded what the Church and the Apostles always taught and to keep that faith to the grave. Yes, with fear and trembling like St. Paul said. Let us keep the faith whether the chair is empty or not. TRust in Jesus that this will all be over soon, the eclipse of the Church and pray he shortens the days. Pray that the dark Church LEAVES Rome !! Who knows, there may be a line of successors of true popes out there somewhere continuing in exile and hiding protected by God. What differs from the Western Schism is that we don’t know.
Just remember your ways and opinions are not God’s ways. Swallow your pride. Pride is the root to sin.
God help you.

Please don’t call it sedevacanism call it true catholicism. I hate these names we are just Catholic that’s all. We should believe what the Church always taught and not made up doctrines of men. This is persecution like Jesus said would happen.
 
You are not Catholic and a good example of that Catholic who’s been tested by Jesus to see if you would still keep the faith. God letting an anti-pope take the chair is a test. Why is it so easy for me to understand and not for you. Because you are of bad will and don’t want to accept the truth. You are stubborn and full of pride. Just like an anti-pope.
Let me remind you or maybe you don’t even know that TRUE POPES in all the history of the Church have quoted EX-CATHEDRA from the papal chair THAT A Pope who teaches heresy: looses his office, looses his authority(no longer protected by holy ghost)ipso facto. UNTIL, he repents. A good example of this is St. Peter. He denied Jesus 3 times. He repented. Jesus prayed for him because he knew he would. Ben the 16 went into a synogoque and denied Jesus. He didnot convert any jews like Peter did, doing miracles and preeching that they had to convert to the Messaih, that he has arrived… and come into the new everlasting convenant which was prophesied in the scriptures. If they did not believe, they would be condemned. Proof of this just look at Mark 16: 16 . Jesus said they had to be reborn again in baptism and believe. He who does not believe and baptised is condemned.(to hell). This new everlasting covenant is prophesied in the scriptures by the prophets , came first for the jews and then the rest of the nations. Judaism was a shadow of what was coming in the future after the coming of the Messaih, his death , ressurection and his ascension. Judaism was not universal and eternal. Passover is a shadow of the Eucharist . Jesus the new everlasting Lamb. The tabernacle and the sacrifice of the lamb in the synogogue. Jesus is now in the tabernacle and his body replaces the sacrificial lamb. Jews went to the rabbi (priest) to be pardoned by God and for advice. There was a jewish hierarchy like we have the priests, bishops, etc…all a shadow of the eternal covenant that was coming.
Those internet sites that this information comes from are there for a reason. God uses many ways to make his people see the light and to make them see. It doesn’t matter from what source we get it from. We have to be reminded what the Church and the Apostles always taught and to keep that faith to the grave. Yes, with fear and trembling like St. Paul said. Let us keep the faith whether the chair is empty or not. TRust in Jesus that this will all be over soon, the eclipse of the Church and pray he shortens the days. Pray that the dark Church LEAVES Rome !! Who knows, there may be a line of successors of true popes out there somewhere continuing in exile and hiding protected by God. What differs from the Western Schism is that we don’t know.
Just remember your ways and opinions are not God’s ways. Swallow your pride. Pride is the root to sin.
God help you.

Please don’t call it sedevacanism call it true catholicism. I hate these names we are just Catholic that’s all. We should believe what the Church always taught and not made up doctrines of men. This is persecution like Jesus said would happen.
That is dead wrong.

A Pope who is guilty of heresy does not loose his office. He can be ex-communicated, but he was a valid Pope.

A Pope is a valid Pope once he is elected to the Papacy and does not loose his office because of heresy.

The infallible Catholic Church has proven this with Pope Honorius. He was declred a heretic by two Popes and a Council. A Church Council ex-communicated him. This heretical ex-communicated Pope is still a valid Pope and to this day appears on the official list of Peter’s successors.

Sedes are guilty of Papal Idolatry because they turn the Popes into idols and make them out to be as perfect as the divine. A Pope is man with free will and can err.

As Bishop Williamson of the SSPX rightly said, the Sede position is dead wrong because God is so great that he can work around liberal Popes.
 
If I am not mistaken, Sedevacantism is currently a banned topic at CAF.
 
I attended a sede parish for 15 years. They follow Bishop Mark Pivarunas CMRI, Bishop Dolan SSPV, and others in Mexico and Europe.
 
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