Seeing and Hearing God

[emergingfaith]

Doesn’t it seem a little illogical that a God that can do whatever He wants and wants all to love him…doesn’t communicate with us in a way that we can objectively hear and see? How do we understand this as Catholics? Also-How would you explain this to someone who is not already predisposed to faith?

 

[Sam_777]

Doesn’t it seem a little illogical that a God that can do whatever He wants and wants all to love him…doesn’t communicate with us in a way that we can objectively hear and see? How do

Sometimes I think the same thing, but I think we are here on earth in a training period, where God sent us after Adam & Eve have sinned to know who is Satan really is and how he deceives people.

 

[teachccd]

Doesn’t it seem a little illogical that a God that can do whatever He wants and wants all to love him…doesn’t communicate with us in a way that we can objectively hear and see? How do we understand this as Catholics? Also-How would you explain this to someone who is not already predisposed to faith?

That all depends on your definition of “objectively”. When God speaks to us through others or shows Himself through creation is it God not revealing Himself or is it us not realizing what we see or hear? Radio waves are not objectively seen or heard without a proper device to “capture” the frequency and transform it into something that we understand.

We also have no way to see or hear love. It is felt with the heart and can never be proven to exist scientifically. We know that love exisits only through experiential situations. You could not explain it, describe it or otherwise give it to someone who will not open their heart to it.

Now, in light of that, we come to God who IS Love. God does not “do” anything. God is. His essence is infinitely greater than anything that can be done. Everything that God is already reveals itself and as Catholics we especially know this through Jesus Christ. He is the full revelation of God. If we are Catholic then we need no further “proof”. When God took on human form it was not a future event for Him fifty years prior. God is in the Eternal Now. He has never done or ever will do anything. We, who are in time, see a chronological sequence of events.

If someone is not predisposed to faith then their heart is like a broken radio or one who closes themself to love. Each person is inherently designed to seek God. We have faith in everything that we do everyday for this reason. We have faith in history teachers, authors and the like. We have faith that countries we’ve never visited really do exist and I now have faith that my computer won’t go kaput. So one who denies faith in God does not exhibit an intrinsic behavior but in contrast must go against their own human nature and pull away from all of the evidence pointing to His existence…God Bless…teachccd

 

[KBarn]

Doesn’t it seem a little illogical that a God that can do whatever He wants and wants all to love him…doesn’t communicate with us in a way that we can objectively hear and see? How do we understand this as Catholics? Also-How would you explain this to someone who is not already predisposed to faith?

Interesting question.

God, as supernatural and as God, is not a thing in the world. He transcends the world. Because of this, we cannot perceive him in an immediate, but only mediate, way. This can happen in two ways:

(1) knowledge which we can have of God by a reflection on God’s effects - but this remains natural knowledge and that when we affirm similarities between God and creatures we have to at the same time affirm the infinite distance between them.

(2) knowledge of God by way of faith - this is supernatural knowledge, enabling us to affirm truth without seeing it. So, for example, Christians affirm that God is Trinity without being able to “see” that it must be so. Whereas we “see” that two things equal to a third thing are equal to each other, we do not “see” that God is Trinity.

Finally, God cannot do anything He wants. He is limited by His own nature. He cannot make finite creatures which have the ability to know Him as He knows himself. Because such knowledge presumes an infinite being. Finite creatures cannot have attributes of infinite beings in the same fashion as those beings.

Thus, we can have mediate knowledge of God, that is, knowledge of God that is mediated by concepts drawn from that which we can naturally experience. Whereas we affirm the reality of the Trinity, our understanding of it is mediated by concepts which are drawn from Greek philosophy such as substance, person, relation, etc.

This makes things like liturgy and sacraments so important. These are concrete things that mediate the presence and grace of God. That is why it was important that God the Son become man in Jesus because His human nature was able to mediate the presence of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, which it is hypostatically united to.

 

[puzzleannie]

Doesn’t it seem a little illogical that a God that can do whatever He wants and wants all to love him…doesn’t communicate with us in a way that we can objectively hear and see? How do we understand this as Catholics? Also-How would you explain this to someone who is not already predisposed to faith?

predisposition or not, I would tell them the truth God speaks plainly and clearly to the entire world. He has revealed himself completely in his Son Jesus Christ and that revelation is preserved, handed down and taught without error by the Catholic Church, under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit through Sacred Scripture and Tradition, through her magesterial teaching office. Let he who has ears, hear.

He speaks plainly and clearly in every human heart where he as implanted his commandments and in his creation which manifests his power and glory. Let he who has eyes, see.

 

[BlaineTog]

Doesn’t it seem a little illogical that a God that can do whatever He wants and wants all to love him…doesn’t communicate with us in a way that we can objectively hear and see?

He does, though. Sunsets are probably the most blatant of the ways that God says “I love you.” It’s pretty ostentatious to paint a beautiful interplay of colors that’s just a little bit different every night across the sky for anyone who cares to go outside and look. The ocean is another way God says “I love you.” Who doesn’t feel peace and contentment when staring out to sea? Then, of course, there’s wine, which clearly would only exist if God loved us (though granted it is easier to abuse wine than ocean waves). All beauty on Earth is God trying to get it through our heads that he loves us.

 

[Nickkname]

Doesn’t it seem a little illogical that a God that can do whatever He wants and wants all to love him…doesn’t communicate with us in a way that we can objectively hear and see? How do we understand this as Catholics? Also-How would you explain this to someone who is not already predisposed to faith?

God has communicated with us. He assumed human nature and walked the earth. Also, he speaks to us in the Sacred Scriptures. And while we cannot see his face, we can see his glory, for nature is a reflection of the glory of God: like St. Paul said, we see now in partiality, but in the world to come, we will see God fully, face to face.

Moreover, someone who dose not have faith in God will first have to be convinced of the existence of God: there are five philosophical arguments for the existence of God. Then the person would have to believe the Catholic Church is the Church of Jesus Christ: this can easily be found by a careful and prayerful study of Sacred Scriptures and of the writings of the Church Fathers. After that, it’s just a matter of whether or not the person believes everything which the Church believes.

 

[mangy_dog]

Interesting question.

God, as supernatural and as God, is not a thing in the world. He transcends the world. Because of this, we cannot perceive him in an immediate, but only mediate, way. This can happen in two ways:

(1) knowledge which we can have of God by a reflection on God’s effects - but this remains natural knowledge and that when we affirm similarities between God and creatures we have to at the same time affirm the infinite distance between them.

(2) knowledge of God by way of faith - this is supernatural knowledge, enabling us to affirm truth without seeing it. So, for example, Christians affirm that God is Trinity without being able to “see” that it must be so. Whereas we “see” that two things equal to a third thing are equal to each other, we do not “see” that God is Trinity.

Finally, God cannot do anything He wants. He is limited by His own nature. He cannot make finite creatures which have the ability to know Him as He knows himself. Because such knowledge presumes an infinite being. Finite creatures cannot have attributes of infinite beings in the same fashion as those beings.

Thus, we can have mediate knowledge of God, that is, knowledge of God that is mediated by concepts drawn from that which we can naturally experience. Whereas we affirm the reality of the Trinity, our understanding of it is mediated by concepts which are drawn from Greek philosophy such as substance, person, relation, etc.

This makes things like liturgy and sacraments so important. These are concrete things that mediate the presence and grace of God. That is why it was important that God the Son become man in Jesus because His human nature was able to mediate the presence of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, which it is hypostatically united to.

Your thread is good. It’s just the wording of “God cannot do anything He wants, He is limited by His own nature”.

God can do whatever He wants in that everything He wants is good.
God does not oppose Himself or contradict His own nature. A bad choice would be a limiting factor. God is limitless in all He does because all He does is always and eternally good.

Sorry, it just seems softer to digest like this.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[ilovekittens]

He does, though. Sunsets are probably the most blatant of the ways that God says “I love you.” It’s pretty ostentatious to paint a beautiful interplay of colors that’s just a little bit different every night across the sky for anyone who cares to go outside and look. The ocean is another way God says “I love you.” Who doesn’t feel peace and contentment when staring out to sea? Then, of course, there’s wine, which clearly would only exist if God loved us (though granted it is easier to abuse wine than ocean waves). All beauty on Earth is God trying to get it through our heads that he loves us.

Of course, this begs the question of what God is trying to get through our heads when we the horror of nature. When a Sri Lankan looks at the ocean and sees a 20 foot tsunami which washes him away, what kind of message is the Almighty sending him? Not “I love you,” I assume. When a Kansan looks at the sky and sees not a beautiful interplay of colors but rather a tornado bearing down on his family and house, that doesn’t seem like the gift of a warm, fuzzy God. And, of course, the families of alcoholics would all be much happier if wine had never been invented.

 

[fhansen]

Doesn’t it seem a little illogical that a God that can do whatever He wants and wants all to love him…doesn’t communicate with us in a way that we can objectively hear and see? How do we understand this as Catholics? Also-How would you explain this to someone who is not already predisposed to faith?

The reason for this is elusive. God must want our faith to be challenging. Adam & Eve walked by sight and still, for all practical purposes, didn’t believe. God wants to draw us into walking by faith and not by sight-believing without seeing-and He apparently considers that to be just. It’s as if He’s saying, You already know I’m here because I made you to know Me but your pride blinded you and separated us. Now humility is in order to restore your sight and our relationship.

What greater proof and demonstration of faith then one that bows to a King it can’t even see and can’t prove to those who doubt? What better way to separate out the wheat from the tares? No humility-no faith-no hunger and thirst for truth or striving for God or effort on our part are required if the Tree of Life is standing in our midst to eat of as we please.

Maybe not, but it sounded fair to me.

 

[BlaineTog]

Of course, this begs the question of what God is trying to get through our heads when we the horror of nature. When a Sri Lankan looks at the ocean and sees a 20 foot tsunami which washes him away, what kind of message is the Almighty sending him? Not “I love you,” I assume. When a Kansan looks at the sky and sees not a beautiful interplay of colors but rather a tornado bearing down on his family and house, that doesn’t seem like the gift of a warm, fuzzy God. And, of course, the families of alcoholics would all be much happier if wine had never been invented.

He’s telling us that all is not right in the world, which is true.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

There was a time when he appeared to us and spoke to us. And we then crucified him. I think now he has a better plan.

I guess it’s better for God to be in a divine place like heaven, because he can have a more personal relationship with us through our spirits. If he was on earth, appearing to us and speaking to us, how would it work? Could he be able to appear and speak to all 6-7 billion people at once and still have a personal relationship? I don’t think so, unless he contradicts the laws of nature.

It’s another mystery. We are called to trust his ways.

 

[KBarn]

Your thread is good. It’s just the wording of “God cannot do anything He wants, He is limited by His own nature”.

God can do whatever He wants in that everything He wants is good.
God does not oppose Himself or contradict His own nature. A bad choice would be a limiting factor. God is limitless in all He does because all He does is always and eternally good.

Sorry, it just seems softer to digest like this.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

First of all, thank you for sharing your perspective about the quality of God’s moral action. I wasn’t really think about it from that perspective.

I know there is a tendency, and a legitimate one at that, to think of God’s power as unlimited. You are right for saying that it is. I was too simplistic in my formulation. ‘Omnipotent,’ however, means that God can do all things with his power that power can accomplish. So win you say that God cannot contradict himself, you are right because his power cannot accomplish that which would contradict himself. God can do anything that is logically possible. If he were able to do the logically impossible, he would contradict himself. So, for example, God could not make a square triangle. This is impossible by definition.

As far as I can tell, when we discuss the moral quality of God’s action, we are touching on an old debate, going all the way back to Aquinas and Dun Scotus.

Thomas is an intellectualist, so he would say that God does not arbitrarily establish right and wrong, but that in knowing himself and knowing his creatures, he establishes right and wrong in a way that relates intrinsically to what is perfective of his creatures, patterned in some way after the divine nature. That which is good is perfective of his creatures, and creatures, in striving for perfection, are striving after their likeness to God.

Scotus (Wm. of Ockham, Descartes, etc.) are voluntarists, believing that the mere fact that God declares something means that it is good, that God more or less exercises arbitrary power in establishing good and evil.

It goes back to the classic Euthyphro question: Is piety loved by God because it is holy, or is piety holy because it is loved by God?

 

[Jimdandy]

To hear the voice of God, read His Word-(how smart He is to have given us a source for the answers to most of our daily trials and joys-eliminating His having to repeat Himself over and over millions of times daily)

I trust in the Will of God.

He desires me to have Faith, which I would not need if He was visible.

My Faith builds my hope and directs my charity.

 

[jack20088]

We can see god in the child smile, in the pure rain drop from the sky, in the mother kindness to her child, while we help to the not having people… In these kinds only we can see god and anywhere else…​

karry
Social Media Marketing - 740002341.677937 widecircles.com

 

[Viki63]

Actually, at times God does speak to us, individually, in unique ways suited to our situations. I have a friend who was about to commit suicide, climbed up a mountain to jump off it, and saw Christ floating in the air and telling him not to do it. Of course he was on drugs, but God clearly used his mental condition to get through to him.
There is also the girl who was in prison during a time of drought, who believed that God could not love her, and said, “if He loves me, he’ll let it rain tonight,” It started to rain that night, though it had not rained for weeks, and there was a huge downpour that lasted days – she was convinced of the vastness of God’s love.
There are hundreds of such stories. We know very little of what goes on between our world and the spiritual world.
I believe that God wants to communicate with us, but He is economical with His words, He does not waste them.​

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I think you state a question that is common to most people at some point in time. Certainly every agnostic has sat down at least once and literally begged God to reveal himself so that the agnostic could “believe.”

My own take is that to expect God to do so in a way that is so clear to everyone that no one could not believe, is certainly possible, but mistakes the entire purpose of our sojourn on this planet. I believe that God infuses himself into all beings of at least sentient character.

We are being prepared here for our continued journey upward and inward to complete and total communion with God. That requires that we be given the opportunity, in this mortal life to aquire some of the attributes that a spiritual being needs to progress. We are given situations that are difficult, painful, sorrowful, etc, because over time it is hoped that such experiences engender the qualitities of faith, hope, brotherhood, compassion, empathy, etc within in. These are the qualtites, as well as many others, that are required of us as we assume our place in the spiritual world of eternity.

To be simply given such evidence at the start, makes such a growth simply impossible. It makes us nothing but robots actually, simply following a set pattern of behavior dictated by God. God in his gratiousness gives us free will to grow at our own speed, or not grow at all. I certainly have no idea what happens to those who have failed completely, but i doubt that anyone does fail completely. Even Hitler loved his dogs i am told. To the degree that we have accomplished a lot during our mortal life, we have a shorter learning period afterward.

I recognize that it is difficult to endure. Some reject it because it is not proveable. Some ignore it for the most part. Some give it lip service, some adher to a rigid code often elicted in one or another religious creed. Others agree that a number of moral creedal precepts found in many religions are to be adhered to as best as can be. Others are very intent on learning as broadly as possible and are very conscious that daily they are in communion with God whether they “know” it or not, and are most mindful of their every breathe.

I am not convinced that I am right, but I believe that I am closer than I was say 10 years ago. I hope and trust that in another 10 years, I will feel I have made significant progress. About the only way that I know to feel sure that you are correct or on the right track is that as you devote more time to spiritual things, you find yourself happier and more at peace with yourself and others. You care more about issues that involve justice and fairness. You are more deeply empathetic and compassionate to those who less fortunate spiritually or materially. That is the evidence that I trust anyway. Hope this helps in some small way.