Self-deception and the Resurrection of Jesus

[LeonardDeNoblac]

This morning I talked with a friend of mine (an atheist ) about the evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus.
I pointed out to him that the disciples couldn’t have stolen Jesus’ body: if they had done so, they would have given up proclaiming the Gospel once they would have seen that they had nothing to gain from that - indeed, they were hated, persecuted, arrested, imprisoned and tortured for refusing to give up their faith, and nearly all of them ended up as martyrs.
He answered that they could have stolen Jesus’ body, but that later they could have deceived themselves that they had seen Christ resurrected to the point of becoming religious fanatics.
Do you think that such a thing is possible? I think it’s just absurd. No one gets voluntarily martyred for a lie that he himself deliberately and knowingly made up, a lie for wich he is hated and persecuted.

 

[annad347]

He answered that they could have stolen Jesus’ body, but that later they could have deceived themselves that they had seen Christ resurrected to the point of becoming religious fanatics.

If they could do that, they would have been the most amazing con men ever known to men.

Not only would they have had to steal the body, can you imagine the amount of blood, guts and just all kinds of nasty stuff they would have to clean up.

And the apostles werent the only ones who saw Jesus after His resurrection…wasnt there like 500 people who saw Him ascend into heaven.

 

[Vico]

LeonardDeNoblac:

He answered that they could have stolen Jesus’ body, but that later they could have deceived themselves that they had seen Christ resurrected to the point of becoming religious fanatics.

If they could do that, they would have been the most amazing con men ever known to men.

Not only would they have had to steal the body, can you imagine the amount of blood, guts and just all kinds of nasty stuff they would have to clean up.

And the apostles werent the only ones who saw Jesus after His resurrection…wasnt there like 500 people who saw Him ascend into heaven.

1 Cor. 15

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephasa and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one of untimely birth.

 

[Bluebright]

Unlikely, imagine dying in some of those horrific ways and not just saying, ok ok, it was a lie the whole thing. I don’t buy it. These men (the twelve specifically) and I mean no offence, were not that brave and fearless during Jesus life, they ran away during his death (most of them) and hid. It wasnt until Pentecost when they suddenly started proclaiming Gods name. It doesn’t take a genius to know something happened to make 12 ordinary men fearless. The resurrection must have happened as they said otherwise how they act makes no sense. 12 ordinary men hiding for there life suddenly start proclaiming the name of Jesus and are willing to die horrendous deaths and risk being lashed and thrown in prison. Why would they do that if the resurrection wasnt true? They wouldn’t. No lie is worth being stoned to death over, or crucified or the other horrid death and all with joy and no complaint.

 

[LeonardDeNoblac]

Yes, that was my argument. He just anwered that they could have deceived themselves, after stealing the body, that they hadn’t done so. How such a thing is possible, I don’t know, it just seems absurd.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Yes, that was my argument. He just anwered that they could have deceived themselves, after stealing the body, that they hadn’t done so. How such a thing is possible, I don’t know, it just seems absurd.

That’s because it is absurd. You’re friend doesn’t have an actual response, so he’s deluding himself. This is the sad reality of people who object the Truth, they abandon rational thought in favor of whatever irrational straws they can grasp at to avoid the tough questions.

 

[LeonardDeNoblac]

And he was lucky that we haven’t reached the point of the discussion when I would have asked him how the guards of the tomb would have been convinced by the Apostles to let them steal the body.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

And he was lucky that we haven’t reached the point of the discussion when I would have asked him how the guards of the tomb would have been convinced by the Apostles to let them steal the body.

Especially considering that, failing in their jobs, they would have been headed for either imprisonment or execution.

 

[Gorgias]

He answered that they could have stolen Jesus’ body, but that later they could have deceived themselves that they had seen Christ resurrected to the point of becoming religious fanatics.

So:

• somehow avoided Roman guards
• stole the body
• came in contact with the body, thus making themselves ritually impure (but celebrated the Sabbath nevertheless?)
• didn’t bury the body according to Jewish custom, thus dishonoring Jesus
• never let on to the deception – not a one of them! – even in the face of persecution, torture, and death
• they perpetrate lies that end up in Scripture, and are not contradicted by anyone (“500 people? no, we didn’t see Jesus after His death!”)

Tell him if he thinks that this is credible and believable, I’ve got a bridge I’d like to sell him.

You’re friend doesn’t have an actual response, so he’s deluding himself.

No, I think it’s more like he’s just trying to come up with anything that could be accepted as remotely plausible, so that he might cling to the claim “well… it might have happened that way!”

The appropriate response, I think, isn’t “you’re deluding yourself”, but rather, “no… it’s not reasonable to claim that it might have happened that way.”

 

[EndTimes]

Should be noted that even Jesus’ Enemies neither denied his Existence nor His Miracles barring One

His Resurrection. “His Disciples Stole the Body”>.

_

 

[annad347]

I have a question for your friend.

If it was so easy for 12 people to delude themselves into believing their own lie… why would they do that? What purpose would it serve?

 

[LeonardDeNoblac]

Today I talked to him again on that. He said that the guards were bribed. I pointed out to him that no one would ever accept money for doing something he would be executed for. He said that the guards were probably Christian. However, I think that the Jewish priestly authorities were not idiots, the would have never put Christian guards in front of Jesus’ tomb in order to avoid the stealing of Jesus’ body by … Christians. Also, what would have they gained from that? They would still have been executed.

 

[Elias]

To think that the Apostles would purposely steal and hide Christ’s body is absurd. What would they gain from it? If they were looking for worldly riches (like a certain false prophet) they could have easily done so, but chose not to. They instead chose the life of martyrdom and poverty.

Why would anyone purposely deceive people for no material gain? It makes no sense.

 

[Inquiry]

Is it distantly possible that a dozen or so people deluded themselves into thinking they didn’t steal a body and it actually returned to life? I suppose, but even if so it is dramatically more possible for a single person 2,000 years later to convince himself that is an explanation he could ever find reasonable.

 

[Gorgias]

OK, so… your friend isn’t really saying these things happened. What he’s saying is “well… it could have happened that way!”

There’s a word for that: conjecture. For all you know, the next claim out of his mouth might be “well, the Flying Spaghetti Monster grabbed Jesus out of his grave!” So, your best bet might be to ask him what evidence there is for his assertions, and when he doesn’t have any, then point out to him that just because something is possible, it doesn’t mean it happened (or is even plausible).

He said that the guards were bribed.

Not likely. They were Roman guards. Failure to perform their duty meant execution. How are you gonna spend the money if you’re dead?

In any case, the Gospels attest that the Jewish authorities told the guards that they’d protect them from repercussions from their Roman bosses, if they’d lie about what happened. So… there was a bribe… but it was in order that they’d lie and say that the Resurrection didn’t happen.

He said that the guards were probably Christian. However, I think that the Jewish priestly authorities were not idiots, the would have never put Christian guards in front of Jesus’ tomb in order to avoid the stealing of Jesus’ body by … Christians.

They were Roman guards.

The assertion doesn’t hold up to a moment’s scrutiny. Think about it for a second: if you were a guard at the tomb of Christ – and you were a believer in Christ – wouldn’t you go around everywhere, telling everyone what happened? And yet… that’s not how it went down. So, it can’t have happened that way.

 

[historyfan81]

The stolen body hypothesis has many problems .

Even if it’s assumed that the guards never existed … Well it’s Passover the city would be crowded unless they burried Jesus corpse near the area Wich would make easier to find him .

They can’t go so far until someone notices them .

Other problems
James and Paul
The stolen body doesn’t exaplain this .

The problem with the stolen
Apart from dying for something they know to be fake

Is that The apostoles don’t follow normal cult behavior

Usually cult leaders gather their following isolate them and when confronted leave
Even if the apostoles fooled themselves they still know it’s false they should have gathern their followers take them and preach the new religion in Spain or India .

What you never do is confront the men who can blow your cover in the same place (ie jersusalem)
And Never do you preach stay a while and leave this is not the behavior of cults that are being afraid of being exposed .

 

[Dan_Defender]

Also, what would have they gained from that? They would still have been executed.

I can see this discussion with your friend is going nowhere. He can come up with any number of scenarios. Better ask him how atheism is in any way compatible with morality. Tell him, prove to me that without God you are accountable for anything, that any morality is needed.

 

[Thom18]

He’s depending on at least 11 people (13 when we add the two Mary’s) to simultaneously lapse in judgement and never return to their senses in order to prove his thesis.

 

[EndTimes]

Today I talked to him again on that. He said that the guards were bribed.

Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all the things that had happened. When they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, saying, “Tell them, ‘His disciples came at night and stole Him away while we slept.’ And if this comes to the governor’s ears, we will appease him and make you secure.” So they took the money and did as they were instructed; and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

 

[LeonardDeNoblac]

Yes, even the pagan philosopher Celsus reported the same thing. The stolen body theory seems the only alternative hypotesis that the ancient adversaries of Christianity ever produced.