Self-giving

[Margita]

But when do get to the point where you run yourself into the ground through giving?Is it really that wrong to want a bit of pleasure in life?

As for “a bit of pleasure” - you should first think very deeply about how much that bit of pleasure may cost you, or another person. What seems to be just “a bit” may turn out to be a big deal.
How do you know that you run yourself into the ground? Do you feel you have no strength to make the sacrifice, or that it is only a useless, frustrating thing? Are you unable to see the point or the virtue in it? In that case, you must examine yourself and the situation very profoundly, and talk it over with a spiritual director and the other person(s) involved. We are intelligent beings - we need to understand what we do and why. And virtue is only virtue if you know the “why” of it.

 

[dulcissima]

Self giving is a virtue…true and I agree.

But when do get to the point where you run yourself into the ground through giving?
When do become a worse spouse/parent because you just give and give and give?
When is it appropriate for a little “Me” time? Is it really that wrong to want a bit of pleasure in life?

It seems more and more that it’s frowned upon to seek a little pleasure…

It’s actually pretty important to make sure that your needs are met, and totally denying yourself any pleasure is not healthy, either emotionally or even spiritually. What’s more, when you have people in your life that you always give, give, give, and they just take, take, take that provides a really unbalanced relationship that is not good for either party. In a family, in a relationship, it is really important that everyone’s needs are being met. For one party to have it be all about them and their needs, while the other party is completely neglected…that’s just not healthy and not beneficial for everyone.

Pleasure is a good thing, I believe, as long as it is enjoyed in moderation and is balanced to where it is not all about the needs of one person and only one person.

I’ve been reading The Ascent to Truth by Thomas Merton and in it he explains how extreme asceticism is actually dangerous. It seeks to destroy what is human in us. We are not angels, pure spirits. We are human beings, and should seek the right balance between body and soul. There is a quote by Pascal, Qui veut faire l’ange, fait la bette, “Those who play at being angels, end up as animals.”

 

[StCsDavid]

It’s important to note that our founding fathers were not in search of a country to have the freedom to do whatever they wanted to do, but rather the freedom to do what was the right thing to do. The pursuit of happiness to an 18th century man probably had a little different meaning than it does to a 21st century man.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Going to church does not necessarily bring you to heaven. CCC teaches us that faith and good works will lead one to salvation.

I have never really come across any teaching from Catholic or non-Catholic that says working for your salvation to go to heaven is selfish. Saint Paul even urges us to “work for salvation with trembling…”.
On the other hand, no one can go to heaven with sin in his heart.

So if going to heaven is selfish, no one can go to heaven! (looks like a circular reasoning?)

Boy did you make a pudding out of that one! There is a big argument on the thread Was Jesus a heretic for preaching works salvation about salvation and works. Go look.

I have argued against the Catholic grain for salvation plus works. I have demonstrated, against the grain, that CCC (2005) does instruct we attain eternal life by grace and works. So of course sitting on your pew in church gets you not much and I did not imply that it did, unless I misread myself here.

Just briefly (on my way to Friday mass), going to heaven is not selfish, and not implied. Thinking ONLY about eternal life is selfish, and not worthy of anyone who calls him or herself a Christian. The full Christian is one who combines faith in life everlasting after death, but lives a full, compassionate life committed to the welfare of others, exemplifying Christ’s life of compassion, action and sacrifice.

The idea that going to heaven is selfish - it does not compute from what I have written. Anyway, we are all chosen by God when we are born. Then we accept or reject his love. He does not consider it selfish. Go and check out that other thread. (Search nerfherder)

 

[Chancellare]

It’s important to note that our founding fathers were not in search of a country to have the freedom to do whatever they wanted to do, but rather the freedom to do what was the right thing to do. The pursuit of happiness to an 18th century man probably had a little different meaning than it does to a 21st century man.

This is an interesting note. But is there that much change in the moral ethos between 18th century to present? The hardware might have changed but the software is still the same: “rugged individualism”.

 

[undeserving]

The point we forget is that He loves us, and He longs for us to reciprocate that love. The Saints did not think of their ascetic lifestyles, or their self giving as sacrifices, or as chores, I doubt if they ever yearned for any “Me” time. The saints were so enamoured by their visions of what union with Him would be that they gave every fiber of their being to Him. Whatever Mother Teresa did, she did for Christ, she herself says, that if it had not been for her faith, or for her deep love for Him she would never be able to do what she did.
So when we give of ourselves to others or to God, we do so freely and willingly, with joy and gladness in our hearts, because we love Him and we are carrying out His will.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

The point we forget is that He loves us, and He longs for us to reciprocate that love. The Saints did not think of their ascetic lifestyles, or their self giving as sacrifices, or as chores, I doubt if they ever yearned for any “Me” time. The saints were so enamoured by their visions of what union with Him would be that they gave every fiber of their being to Him. Whatever Mother Teresa did, she did for Christ, she herself says, that if it had not been for her faith, or for her deep love for Him she would never be able to do what she did.
So when we give of ourselves to others or to God, we do so freely and willingly, with joy and gladness in our hearts, because we love Him and we are carrying out His will.

Absolutely! You have put it well - couldn’t agree more.

 

[guanophore]

I’m one of those silently suffering with over-dose of the never-ending threads about Masturbation and all the possible ways the word can be mis-spelled.

Our entire western culture is so fixated with self-gratification and pursuit of pleasure and happiness that we end up with a generation of psychotic cases arising from this obsession. Why, even our Declaration of Independence was based on one central motivation: “The pursuit of Happiness”. Although I have nothing against this pursuit, we all know that this has unwittingly created a disordered desire to pursue happiness and pleasure for its own sake. I even hazard one theory further: this is one of the root causes for our cultural tendency to embrace relativism and contraception mentality.

My question now is: Do you agree that self-giving is the missing virtue? Thoughts and possible methodologies are welcome.

Absolutely. The founding fathers were all servants, giving of their livelihoods and risking their lives to found the country. They were all men of faith, also, and would never conceive of happiness about from service to God.

I must admit I have always been uncomfortable with this word in our Declaration. And it’s usage in popular culture is absolutely mind-numbing. “Whatever makes you happy” is the new Commandment which we humans seem to determined to fulfill completely, no matter what the cost. I’ve always felt that describing oneself as a “happy” person is akin to a description of the village idiot’s disposition. It is a meaningless goal, in my opinion, because it is transient and usually dependent on externals. Now, if one wishes **to speak of joy, peace, equanimity, **then I can relate to that. I look at happiness as a pleasant side effect or consequence of those other, more important qualities. But definately not the goal.

Indeed these are the qualities which the founders had in mind when the documents were composed. They wanted freedom to worship God in their own way, and freedom from taxation without representation. It had nothing to do with fleshly pleasure seeking.

Going to church does not necessarily bring you to heaven. CCC teaches us that faith and good works will lead one to salvation.

I have never really come across any teaching from Catholic or non-Catholic that says working for your salvation to go to heaven is selfish. Saint Paul even urges us to “work for salvation with trembling…”.
On the other hand, no one can go to heaven with sin in his heart.

So if going to heaven is selfish, no one can go to heaven! (looks like a circular reasoning?)

I think this is an erroneous perception of church teaching and salvation. I think the church teaches us that there is nothing we can do to earn our way into heaven by good works. Paul tells us to “work out” not to work “for”. Paul is wrting to people who are already justified by grace, through faith.

 

[dulcissima]

The point we forget is that He loves us, and He longs for us to reciprocate that love. The Saints did not think of their ascetic lifestyles, or their self giving as sacrifices, or as chores, I doubt if they ever yearned for any “Me” time. The saints were so enamoured by their visions of what union with Him would be that they gave every fiber of their being to Him. Whatever Mother Teresa did, she did for Christ, she herself says, that if it had not been for her faith, or for her deep love for Him she would never be able to do what she did.
So when we give of ourselves to others or to God, we do so freely and willingly, with joy and gladness in our hearts, because we love Him and we are carrying out His will.

That is very true when it comes to our relationship with God. I think it is with our relationship with others, spouses, kids, etc… that it becomes a reasonable question, particularly when you have people in your life who don’t appreciate what you do for them, and when the more you give the more they demand, and the more unreasonable their demands get. There’s a balance that must be found.

 

[guanophore]

going to heaven is not selfish, and not implied. Thinking ONLY about eternal life is selfish, and not worthy of anyone who calls him or herself a Christian. The full Christian is one who combines faith in life everlasting after death, but lives a full, compassionate life committed to the welfare of others, exemplifying Christ’s life of compassion, action and sacrifice.

I think what we miss is that “eternal life” and the kingdom are for here and now, as well as “then”. When we enter life, it begins immediately. It is meant to be experienced in this life, in our daily experience as much as for after death.

The idea that going to heaven is selfish - it does not compute from what I have written. Anyway, we are all chosen by God when we are born. Then we accept or reject his love. He does not consider it selfish.

Some would say this happens at conception.

That is very true when it comes to our relationship with God. I think it is with our relationship with others, spouses, kids, etc… that it becomes a reasonable question, particularly when you have people in your life who don’t appreciate what you do for them, and when the more you give the more they demand, and the more unreasonable their demands get. There’s a balance that must be found.

This is very true. I think if one is centered on God, then everything else will fall into place. “Seek first the kingdom, and everything else will be added to you”.

Rom 14:17-19
17 For the kingdom of God is …(is) righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit; 18 he who thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding"

If we are in right relationship with God, and ourselves, then we will naturally be in right relationship with others. The fruit of that right relationship (righteousness) is joy and peace, which is what our founders had in mind when they used the word “happiness”.