Self imposed suffering such as fasting & self-denial

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It has been some time since I posted this thread. After even more time getting to know myself, I see that my motivation for any action has had a lot of self aggrandizement involved in it and that I am really afraid to be close to anyone, even myself because I have been afraid of who I really am…a flawed human being.
 
ecolopy said:
It has been some time since I posted this thread. After even more time getting to know myself, I see that** my motivation for any action has had a lot of self aggrandizement involved in it **and that I am really afraid to be close to anyone, even myself because I have been afraid of who I really am…a flawed human being.
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I’m curious as to how one comes to know their true motives? I do small acts of self-denial in an attempt to grow closer to God by making more room for Him in my heart. And it does pull me closer, especially as I call on him to help me fight the temptation to do what I want rather than continue the self-denial. I do also feel some sense of pride whenever I exercise self-control. Which is unrealistic since I could not have exercised self-control without God’s help. But as long as I keep acknowledging that its God’s work and not mine, even when I’m pleased with myself, have I avoided spiritual pride? Thanks
 
HoosierGal said:
I’m curious as to how one comes to know their true motives?
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See above, Hoosier. Take it up with your confessor. When you pray, meditate on the sixth beatitude.
I do small acts of self-denial in an attempt to grow closer to God by making more room for Him in my heart. And it does pull me closer, especially as I call on him to help me fight the temptation to do what I want rather than continue the self-denial.

Sounds like a plan.

I do also feel some sense of pride whenever I exercise self-control. Which is unrealistic since I could not have exercised self-control without God’s help. But as long as I keep acknowledging that its God’s work and not mine, even when I’m pleased with myself, have I avoided spiritual pride? Thanks
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No. Or maybe. The point is to recognize that “you” have not done anything except to desire Our Lord, but that He has enabled you to walk in a way that conforms more closely with His life. Again: discuss this with a confessor.

If you persist in feeling drawn to a life that includes more physical penance, and it appears that the call is coming from the Lord, an excellent way to assure that you do it in a wholesome way is to explore forms of life in confraternities, communities or societies that have these things as part of their apiritual charism.

As CheddarSox pointed out above, this can be a way of constructing our own cross, beating God to the punch, and generally failing to do things His way by preferring our own way.

One way
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I was very fortunate that my pastor sent me to a particular priest at an abbey nearby for spiritual direction. From what I have read in several threads, one does not always find the right SD the first try. I have been going to my SD for only 5-6 months but I am very very happy with his direction.

The first thing he told me was that I must trust God and that everything that came from the direction was from the Spirit. He also advised me that I should take small steps at a time. I have tried to follow everything that he has suggested and I see that I am changing. My SD is also my confessor and I have found much consolation during reconciliation which I request each time I visit.

I am truly grateful to God for this priest who has been very open to my requests to discuss anything I bring up for direction. There is always a gem to be found in what he advises.
 
Perhaps Mary is the model to follow on suffering. Quietly, faithfully, trustingly, accepting whatever comes into life, always thanking God and thinking of others needs, and deferring to her son, Jesus. This may apply when we are powerless to change something we want to change. Any pride we feel for self control in doing penance can be channeled into gratitude, knowing that it is a gift of grace that we have been able to cooperate with it.
 
I have not read all posts in this thread by far!!! And my apologies for this.

Self imposed penances can be meritorious for sure and especially if one refers them to one’s spiritual director and this I think is important if the self imposed penance is not a small matter and in this case, one would be very wise indeed to seek permission first. One of the benfits of having a director.

The penances, most all I think spiritual writers of status in The Church, that most benefit us and are most meritorious are simply those asked for in the course of our daily lives and thus ordained by God. Just as an example only. If I am a housewife and hate doing dishes and there are dishes to be done and my husband and I have agreed it is to be my duty, which thus becomes a duty of my state in life, to do those dishes and with as much joy as one can muster if not at the feeling level at least in Faith as a cross that is a blessing and hence in Faith a joyful matter…this is highly beneficial as a penance simply because it is ordained by God as it is a duty of our state in life.

St. Therese was truly the master of this type of spirituality…duty done for love of God…and it made a saint of her and a Doctor of The Church. No one in her monastery, her fellow sisters, viewed her as anything but an ordinary good Carmelite nun …and there are heaps of these in Carmelite life and in monasteries and convents everywhere… as well as in families and amongst single people everywhere. It was St. Therese’s insight of these matters and corresponding attitude to them that made her a saint and Doctor of The Church. At least to a large part anyway…with great simplicity and very little education even perhaps reading, she insighted many things and lived them out…but they were not of such remarkable nature as to make her practices obvious to all, rather hers were interior matters.
 
ecolopy said:
Where is the line between masochism and what the faith teaches is virtue?
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My story is not about masochism as such, but about pride in going beyond what is prudent. I went through a period of ‘strict asceticism’ a good few years ago, but I was discouraged from it by my spiritual director. I had given away some basic essentials, like my cooker, fridge, carpets and so on, and I got a ‘high’ from it, but no peace. I think it was a case of putting my faith in what I had done rather than in Christ, and the consequent pride I felt gave me the high. It was only masochistic in the sense that I got pleasure from denying myself, but I was not attached to the pain itself but rather to my own sense of saintliness. This is how I see it.
 
Nick9 said:
My story is not about masochism as such, but about pride in going beyond what is prudent. I went through a period of ‘strict asceticism’ a good few years ago, but I was discouraged from it by my spiritual director. I had given away some basic essentials, like my cooker, fridge, carpets and so on, and I got a ‘high’ from it, but no peace. I think it was a case of putting my faith in what I had done rather than in Christ, and the consequent pride I felt gave me the high. It was only masochistic in the sense that I got pleasure from denying myself, but I was not attached to the pain itself but rather to my own sense of saintliness. This is how I see it.
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Ta da! Man. You GOT it! Actually, one of the spiritual benefits of “enthusiasms” such as you describe is that you soon learn the vanity of it and are in a much better position to temper your asceticism in a wholesome way. Good for you in following your spiritual director!
 
mercygate said:
Ta da! Man. You GOT it! Actually, one of the spiritual benefits of “enthusiasms” such as you describe is that you soon learn the vanity of it and are in a much better position to temper your asceticism in a wholesome way. Good for you in following your spiritual director!
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thanks for the confirmation. It has been a great struggle to accept my director’s advice, even to the point that I still hanker after the ‘good old days’ when I was ‘on fire for the Lord’ and seemingly accomplishing so much. The issue of possessions has been something of a psychological block to me in the sense that I feel I cannot serve the Lord unless I once again give all my possessions away. Recently, however, I was inspired to step out on the water and trust Jesus with whatever He had for me to do, relying on nothing else. This was one of several similar signs and I responded with very positive results. It all seems so clear to me now.
 
Nick9 said:
thanks for the confirmation. It has been a great struggle to accept my director’s advice, even to the point that I still hanker after the ‘good old days’ when I was ‘on fire for the Lord’ and seemingly accomplishing so much. The issue of possessions has been something of a psychological block to me in the sense that I feel I cannot serve the Lord unless I once again give all my possessions away. Recently, however, I was inspired to step out on the water and trust Jesus with whatever He had for me to do, relying on nothing else. This was one of several similar signs and I responded with very positive results. It all seems so clear to me now.
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If you feel drawn to radical poverty, you might do well to discern whether the Lord is calling you to a Religious community where this can be practiced under obedience. That way you won’t be tempted to launch out into a private self-propelled asceticism. I understand the Missionaries of Charity has a men’s division and they really do practice radical poverty in addition to other extraordinary mortifications – if you are being called to that.
 
mercygate said:
If you feel drawn to radical poverty, you might do well to discern whether the Lord is calling you to a Religious community where this can be practiced under obedience. That way you won’t be tempted to launch out into a private self-propelled asceticism. I understand the Missionaries of Charity has a men’s division and they really do practice radical poverty in addition to other extraordinary mortifications – if you are being called to that.
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thanks for the advice. I am currently looking into a Cistercian vocation, which I have received a few signs for. I am hoping that God will give me some strong confirmation about it when I go for a live-in in October. The Missionaries of Charity may be an option if Cistercian life doesn’t appear to be my calling 🙂
 
Nick9 said:
thanks for the advice. I am currently looking into a Cistercian vocation, which I have received a few signs for. I am hoping that God will give me some strong confirmation about it when I go for a live-in in October. The Missionaries of Charity may be an option if Cistercian life doesn’t appear to be my calling 🙂
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🙂 Some “advice”! You’re already there. I might have given this link up-thread, but here it is again. It’s a piece I was asked to write for the Confraternity of Penitents – where these things come up from time to time both positively (meaning, people are not crazy) and negatively (meaning, people are showboating).
 
mercygate said:
🙂 Some “advice”! You’re already there. I might have given this link up-thread, but here it is again. It’s a piece I was asked to write for the Confraternity of Penitents – where these things come up from time to time both positively (meaning, people are not crazy) and negatively (meaning, people are showboating).
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thanks for the compliment but I wouldn’t say I am already there by any means. Thanks for your piece on physical penance. It supports what my director said to me. I can see that I had the wrong idea about penance and that God gave him to me to put me right. 🙂
 
The term “showboating” intrigued me, so I have reflected some on it. I understand that it means ostentatious behavior to attract attention or impress others. Suppose that one is trying to impress God? Is that possible? 🙂
 
ecolopy said:
The term “showboating” intrigued me, so I have reflected some on it. I understand that it means ostentatious behavior to attract attention or impress others. Suppose that one is trying to impress God? Is that possible? 🙂
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No. God doesn’t need to be entertained. Under spiritual direction, however, a particular mortification may be undertaken with the desire of demonstrating (to whom? oneself?) the intensity of one’s desire to receive a particular grace. Ignatius of Loyola mentions this in The Spiritual Exercises.
 
ecolopy said:
The term “showboating” intrigued me, so I have reflected some on it. I understand that it means ostentatious behavior to attract attention or impress others. Suppose that one is trying to impress God? Is that possible? 🙂
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I am guessing that “showboating” is being showy in a physical way primarily so that human beings can admire us. If we are trying to impress God, however, we do not need to “showboat” because God is Spirit and He sees the intentions and our hidden acts. So, impressing God does not mean we always impress others and probably has more merit if we don’t.

I think it is possible to impress God by using our free will in cooperation with His grace. God has given us the power to withold our cooperation and so the amount we do cooperate will affect the amount of ‘pleasure’ God takes in us, as far as I can see. 🙂
 
mercygate said:
No. God doesn’t need to be entertained. Under spiritual direction, however, a particular mortification may be undertaken with the desire of demonstrating (to whom? oneself?) the intensity of one’s desire to receive a particular grace. Ignatius of Loyola mentions this in The Spiritual Exercises.
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isn’t it good to want to please God though? Or is there some imperfection in this? God may not need to receive pleasure from our acts, but I always thought that He was pleased with our very desire to please Him. One of my pains is that I don’t know if God is pleased with me.
 
Nick9 said:
isn’t it good to want to please God though? Or is there some imperfection in this? God may not need to receive pleasure from our acts, but I always thought that He was pleased with our very desire to please Him. One of my pains is that I don’t know if God is pleased with me.
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Perhaps I was not clear. St. Ignatius agrees with you. We can do these things as a way of demonstrating our earnestness.

I agree with that. But God already KNOWS our intent and how earnest we are. HE doesn’t need to be shown. WE might need to show ourselves (indeed, when I was doing the Ignatian Exercises these things contributed very importantly to my experience during that time.
 
mercygate said:
I agree with that. But God already KNOWS our intent and how earnest we are. HE doesn’t need to be shown. WE might need to show ourselves (indeed, when I was doing the Ignatian Exercises these things contributed very importantly to my experience during that time.
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this is helpful to me, thanks. I think I tend to worry about not doing something to please God, as if I need to do some such thing in order to please Him. I forget that God knows my heart and that I want to please Him and that the very fact of this is pleasing to Him. It seems that now I can stop worrying so much and just trust that He will use me as and when He sees fit (without being too passive of course.)
 
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