O
- Status
O
Oneofthewomen
Guest
S
shawnbm
Guest
That seems to be a sound judgment on your part. On the other hand, the fact that some ordained clergy in the Church (permanent deacons in some, not all, dioceses) are strictly forbidden to wear the collar even whilst ministering in a hospitsl, prison, nursing home or a parish is dumbfounding to me. How can an unordained seminarian be permitted to wear the clerical garb outside the confines of a seminary (and thereby possibly be approached by Catholics and non-catholics alike with questions or criticisms regarding Gid, His Church, the sacraments, philosophy, etc.) and an ordained cleric like a permanent deacon not be so permitted (when not working as a lawyer, doctor, therapist, firefighter, carpenter, businessman, etc.)???
That makes no sense at all–although I do recognize each bishop has a say on that in his diocese. What the world needs now is more of a presence of the Church in the public sphere–be they priests, brothers, sisters, nuns, transitional or permanent deacons. Nobody is going to ask a question of just another guy or girl min street clothes–donning clerical garb sends a powerful message.
That makes no sense at all–although I do recognize each bishop has a say on that in his diocese. What the world needs now is more of a presence of the Church in the public sphere–be they priests, brothers, sisters, nuns, transitional or permanent deacons. Nobody is going to ask a question of just another guy or girl min street clothes–donning clerical garb sends a powerful message.
I
InThePew
Guest
And that, in a nutshell, is my objection
C
Chatter163
Guest
I am at an FSSP parish. Our seminarians all wear the cassock, like deacons and priests, pretty much everywhere once they have received it. That is the norm, and it is not even thought about.
I would suggest that concern over this matter is a bit misplaced. The seminary establishes the norms and they are aware of what transpires. Leave such matters to them. I would suggest that many people in the West have had their Catholic culture shorn from them to such a degree that when they are exposed to it again for even a moment, they are shocked and even incredulous. Restoration will take time.
I would suggest that concern over this matter is a bit misplaced. The seminary establishes the norms and they are aware of what transpires. Leave such matters to them. I would suggest that many people in the West have had their Catholic culture shorn from them to such a degree that when they are exposed to it again for even a moment, they are shocked and even incredulous. Restoration will take time.
T
Tarpeian_Rock
Guest
I couldn’t agree more. Our diocese is one of the “no collars on deacons even when they’re ministering” places, and why bishops don’t get the issue of “presence of the Church” is beyond me. A deacon told me that one concern some years ago was stated as the fear that deacons would wear their collar when taking their wives out to dinner. Really?
S
shawnbm
Guest
That one is laughable. Indeed, is not the presence of a married deacon with his wife not yet another symbol of the Church in our community? I should not think it would happen often, but that should not be the reason. Most of our parish priests do not don the collar when going out to dinner and I think most permanent deacons would do the same with their wives and kids. There would be unusual exceptions. But even if that were to occur, could not the Church look at this as a teaching moment–a faithful Catholic deacon and his wife? I have seen protestant ministers with pins and collars out with their spouses and it has not concerned anyone. If anything, the minister might get approached for a quick question. My wife and I took one of our transitional deacons in the diocese to dinner a few weeks ago (he is a friend) and it was no big deal for him to be seated with us. I do agree in distinguishing permanent deacons from priests via the Saint Louis option (gray clerical shirts with collar, rather than black) as it might make it–over time–easier to easily identify who is who by Catholics and non-Catholics alike.
P
pianistclare
Guest
It might seem off-topic, but it does speak to the heart of the matter:
One of the reasons cited for a lack of women religious is the abandonment of their traditional garb. (in some orders) A woman feels like if she’s not going to live in community, and she’s not going to be set apart form the material world by her dress, then what’s the point of joining an order? She can simply be a single woman living the Gospel alone in an apartment, working with people.
I think that the seminarians who want to “dress out” are doing so because they are proud, unashamed, and they want to show that young men indeed find it a worthy calling. I always smile when I see them, and wonder if it is stirring a vocation in the hearts of others. I wish them well. Maybe it’s not “appropriate” but it’s comforting to know that one day, my future grandchildren may benefit from this priest in training.
I also like the grey suggestion. We have 4 Deacons in our parish, and the entire Hispanic community is baffled as to why the one “priest” (he’s a Deacon) never says Mass for them.
Just my 2 cents, that nobody asked for, LOL
O
otjm
Guest
Well, there may be some sense to it. People associate the collar with a priest. And while a deacon is called to present Christ to the world, people are easily confused; it may work more as a hindrance than as something positive for the deacon.
As a point to this, ask any deacon how often he gets called “Father”; and even after politely noting he is not a priest, people will persist. In other words, deacons are still a bit of an anomaly for many people, all of which says that many are not really educated in some (or many) aspects of their faith.
I would presume it would be up to the bishop to determine if a deacon could wear any other symbol, such as a small lapel cross, or other religious symbol. while perhaps not as immediately recognizable that he is ordained, it also does not put him in the position of having to explain.
Just some thoughts…
P
pensmama87
Guest
We have a friend who told us once about experiences like this when he was still in seminary. It was the norm to wear the collar after a certain point in your studies (I don’t know the precise one), and it was while he on assignment in a hospital. He had a lot of people ask him to hear confessions, and when he would explain that he wasn’t a priest yet, they would ask him to bless things, then he had to explain he wasn’t a deacon yet either. Apparently one (rather elderly) patient asked him, “Well, what good are you?”
O
otjm
Guest
OK, let’s turn it around a bit. There are still a whole lot of people who a0 identify the collar with a priest (albeit the Episcopalian and Lutherans may come under that general sweep) and b) if people see the collar and presume “priest”, having dinner with a woman brings other conclusions, most of them not realy of positive merit.
I suspect that the comment may have been one more of “in passing” nature than foundational. It is likely that it is more an issue that people, particularly Catholics, often are less than apt at distinguishing between priest and permanent deacon, and causes the deacon to spend an inordinate time “s’plainin” as Desi would say.
O
Oneofthewomen
Guest
And this just brings us back to my original question. If it is out of concern of confusion that an ordained member of the clergy can’t/shouldn’t wear clerical clothing, why on earth are we OK with it for a seminarian?
Maybe I’ll just ask the Bishop the next time I see him.
O
otjm
Guest
That is both hilarious, and directly to the point. He could have gone about his work in khakis, a button down shirt or white shirt and tie, and done his work without having the collar do more to impede what he was trying to accomplish than help it.We have a friend who told us once about experiences like this when he was still in seminary. It was the norm to wear the collar after a certain point in your studies (I don’t know the precise one), and it was while he on assignment in a hospital. He had a lot of people ask him to hear confessions, and when he would explain that he wasn’t a priest yet, they would ask him to bless things, then he had to explain he wasn’t a deacon yet either. Apparently one (rather elderly) patient asked him, “Well, what good are you?”
I would love to have heard his answer to that last bit.
Then again, having been in seminary (minor) and having experienced the amount of “fall out” that occurs between entering and being selected for ordination (yes, people get right up to the point of ordination to transitional deacon and either choose to not proceed, or are not selected - 2 in my family; my dad’s first cousin, and another, my second cousin), that wearing the collar while on vacation or while doing some form of ministry outside the seminary may put presumptions and expectations, as well as misidentification into the mix.
But hey - I don’t set the rules. I have no problem with the collar on campus; it is relatively isolated, and is a constant reminder that one is not just there as a scholar.
S
shawnbm
Guest
Well taken–your thoughts are akin to things I have heard before. It is precisely because of that reason that more diocesan bishops who do permit permanent deacons to dress in clericals mandate it be the gray and not the black. If that were to become the norm, then all confusion would fade away fairly quickly. You hit the nail on the head about education (or lack of it) of not only cradle Catholics, but non-Catholics. THAT needs to change. I don’t see why good catechesis is not more prevalent on such matters. In the meantime the transitional or permanent deacon who continues to be called “Father” should use that precious time to educate and uplift through prayer. The restoration of the ancient sacred Order of Deacons was of great importance to the Church, and these deacons are clerics who love and serve the Church well. May the LORD richly bless them.
- Status