Sermon on the mount/violence/military- really need help

[lucky4075]

Hello all

I posted into this form back around Thanksgiving time about military service as a christian. Many of you responded with good/helpful and encouraging advice. I am currently an AFROTC cadet that will have to decide wether or not to commit to the air force very soon(a few weeks). Since my last post I’ve done alot of researching on the topic, praying, and I have talked to my priest on the subject. While all of these things have helped with my decision i am still feeling lingering doubts. Should I just not commit if this issue keeps bothering my conscience they way it has been? Really the only thing that is bothering me so much is the possibility of killing.

The sermon at mass the other week was about the Sermon on the Mount and turning the other cheek/ returning evil for no evil. Many people told me that this applies on a personal level and that it doesn’t mean self defense and military actions. Through my research I found people that said they would refuse to defend themselves or others in any circumstances- I found this disturbing that they would not fight back if it meant life or death for themselves or others. The basis they have for this belief is that Jesus never fought back or killed anyone, and we are supposed to emulate him in all we do. That is what really is hard for me to overcome- part of me tells me that they are right. Also they pointed out that most if not all of the Bible verses that would seem to support self defense or supporting military members are in the old testament under the old covenant, which was broken under the new covenant with the blood of Christ.

A good friend of mine is a marine who will be deployed in about a year and a half. He is an infantry rifleman and he’s Baptist. While he has been supportive and is trying to convince me to stay in as well, the things I mentioned in the above paragraph come back to bother me. I can’t imagine being in his shoes while deployed and being faced with the decision to pull the trigger. Should i not join the service if I can’t make that decision?

So I guess am asking for people’s opinions/advice on the matter again.

thanks

 

[Mumbles140]

Hello all

I posted into this form back around Thanksgiving time about military service as a christian. Many of you responded with good/helpful and encouraging advice. I am currently an AFROTC cadet that will have to decide wether or not to commit to the air force very soon(a few weeks). Since my last post I’ve done alot of researching on the topic, praying, and I have talked to my priest on the subject. While all of these things have helped with my decision i am still feeling lingering doubts. Should I just not commit if this issue keeps bothering my conscience they way it has been? Really the only thing that is bothering me so much is the possibility of killing.

The sermon at mass the other week was about the Sermon on the Mount and turning the other cheek/ returning evil for no evil. Many people told me that this applies on a personal level and that it doesn’t mean self defense and military actions. Through my research I found people that said they would refuse to defend themselves or others in any circumstances- I found this disturbing that they would not fight back if it meant life or death for themselves or others. The basis they have for this belief is that Jesus never fought back or killed anyone, and we are supposed to emulate him in all we do. That is what really is hard for me to overcome- part of me tells me that they are right. Also they pointed out that most if not all of the Bible verses that would seem to support self defense or supporting military members are in the old testament under the old covenant, which was broken under the new covenant with the blood of Christ.

A good friend of mine is a marine who will be deployed in about a year and a half. He is an infantry rifleman and he’s Baptist. While he has been supportive and is trying to convince me to stay in as well, the things I mentioned in the above paragraph come back to bother me. I can’t imagine being in his shoes while deployed and being faced with the decision to pull the trigger. Should i not join the service if I can’t make that decision?

So I guess am asking for people’s opinions/advice on the matter again.

thanks

For Catholic guidance, I recommend the Catechism. For additional Christian reasoning, the best I’ve seen is by C.S. Lewis (‘Why I Am Not a Pacifist’), where he directly confronts the issue of turn the other cheek (specifying personal offenses versus war, and how it couldn’t be interpreted to apply towards real combat).

 

[Catholic1954]

Is your priest a full time military Catholic chaplain? If not, you should find one, because he can give you insight into your doubts where a civilian cannot. There are many saints who were also in the military and fought in the crusades and other wars; Joan of Arc was instructed by heaven to lead the French into battle against the Brittish. What will be your job if you do go through with your commitment? If it is a non-combat related job, or something in the medical field, then the chances are small that you would ever have to make that decision. I don’t want to sound hard, or critical, but I would not feel safe knowing that there were people in the military, that I depend on to protect me and my family, who would hesitate to take out the enemy before he got me or other Americans. If defending America is not your reason for joining the Air Force, then maybe you should look elsewhere for a career. Good Luck! I know the Holy Spirit will lead you to right choice.

 

[Bookcat]

First off…a little not on phrasing…the Old Covenant was not "broken…but yes Jesus fulfilled the law…

Read up on just war in the CCC etc.

Jesus is giving a personal counsel…not something in regards to defending others per se.

Military service can be a praiseworthy occupation when lived in a Christian way.

(though I personally doubt I would be able to enlist…take also into consideration if you wish to do this on in any case…for even if something is moral…you may not wish to enlist still due to not being able to “pull the trigger” in just situations…etc…)

In the early Church individual Christians were at times divided about serving in the Roman army…but this was largely due to the idolatry that was required …many found ways around such…for in time there were many Christians serving…some though refused service and where martyred …and some were later martyred when they refused to do evil that they were ordered to do.

Read up on addresses by Pope John Paul II to the military…and also seek if Pope Benedict has had any such yet.

 

[jbarbaretta]

Hello all

I posted into this form back around Thanksgiving time about military service as a christian. Many of you responded with good/helpful and encouraging advice. I am currently an AFROTC cadet that will have to decide wether or not to commit to the air force very soon(a few weeks). Since my last post I’ve done alot of researching on the topic, praying, and I have talked to my priest on the subject. While all of these things have helped with my decision i am still feeling lingering doubts. Should I just not commit if this issue keeps bothering my conscience they way it has been? Really the only thing that is bothering me so much is the possibility of killing.

The sermon at mass the other week was about the Sermon on the Mount and turning the other cheek/ returning evil for no evil. Many people told me that this applies on a personal level and that it doesn’t mean self defense and military actions. Through my research I found people that said they would refuse to defend themselves or others in any circumstances- I found this disturbing that they would not fight back if it meant life or death for themselves or others. The basis they have for this belief is that Jesus never fought back or killed anyone, and we are supposed to emulate him in all we do. That is what really is hard for me to overcome- part of me tells me that they are right. Also they pointed out that most if not all of the Bible verses that would seem to support self defense or supporting military members are in the old testament under the old covenant, which was broken under the new covenant with the blood of Christ.

A good friend of mine is a marine who will be deployed in about a year and a half. He is an infantry rifleman and he’s Baptist. While he has been supportive and is trying to convince me to stay in as well, the things I mentioned in the above paragraph come back to bother me. I can’t imagine being in his shoes while deployed and being faced with the decision to pull the trigger. Should i not join the service if I can’t make that decision?

So I guess am asking for people’s opinions/advice on the matter again.

thanks

Having been where you are (I went AFROTC then did 4 years active duty) I can understand your dilemma. It is difficult. I will tell you that the percentage of service members that are Christian is GREATER than the general population. That may not help, but it demonstrates how others have viewed the issue.

The issue from a moral perspective isn’t whether you have the right given the Sermon on the Mount to defend yourself, the issue is whether you have a right/obligation to protect others. Am I not committing a moral wrong if I stand to the side and let someone hurt or kill a child, for instance. Not seek vengeance, but if I can stop that person from hurting the child, aren’t I obligated to do that.

I would suggest reading the CCC regarding Just War also catholic.com/library/Just_War_Doctrine_1.asp lays out the tenants nicely.

In the end, its really a matter of what you, personally, can and can’t do in good conscience. If you don’t feel that defending your country/the people in your country/others around the world who ask the US for help is justifiable, then military service may not be for you. On the other hand, you may find that when Jesus said, “Blessed are the Peacemakers” he wasn’t talking about no violence at any cost but about those who, through their sacrifice, make peace possible.

 

[jbarbaretta]

Hello all

I posted into this form back around Thanksgiving time about military service as a christian. Many of you responded with good/helpful and encouraging advice. I am currently an AFROTC cadet that will have to decide wether or not to commit to the air force very soon(a few weeks). Since my last post I’ve done alot of researching on the topic, praying, and I have talked to my priest on the subject. While all of these things have helped with my decision i am still feeling lingering doubts. Should I just not commit if this issue keeps bothering my conscience they way it has been? Really the only thing that is bothering me so much is the possibility of killing.

The sermon at mass the other week was about the Sermon on the Mount and turning the other cheek/ returning evil for no evil. Many people told me that this applies on a personal level and that it doesn’t mean self defense and military actions. Through my research I found people that said they would refuse to defend themselves or others in any circumstances- I found this disturbing that they would not fight back if it meant life or death for themselves or others. The basis they have for this belief is that Jesus never fought back or killed anyone, and we are supposed to emulate him in all we do. That is what really is hard for me to overcome- part of me tells me that they are right. Also they pointed out that most if not all of the Bible verses that would seem to support self defense or supporting military members are in the old testament under the old covenant, which was broken under the new covenant with the blood of Christ.

A good friend of mine is a marine who will be deployed in about a year and a half. He is an infantry rifleman and he’s Baptist. While he has been supportive and is trying to convince me to stay in as well, the things I mentioned in the above paragraph come back to bother me. I can’t imagine being in his shoes while deployed and being faced with the decision to pull the trigger. Should i not join the service if I can’t make that decision?

So I guess am asking for people’s opinions/advice on the matter again.

thanks

Having been where you are (I went AFROTC then did 4 years active duty) I can understand your dilemma. It is difficult. I will tell you that the percentage of service members that are Christian is GREATER than the general population. That may not help, but it demonstrates how others have viewed the issue.

The issue from a moral perspective isn’t whether you have the right given the Sermon on the Mount to defend yourself, the issue is whether you have a right/obligation to protect others. Am I not committing a moral wrong if I stand to the side and let someone hurt or kill a child, for instance. Not seek vengeance, but if I can stop that person from hurting the child, aren’t I obligated to do that.

I would suggest reading the CCC regarding Just War also catholic.com/library/Just_War_Doctrine_1.asp lays out the tenants nicely.

In the end, its really a matter of what you, personally, can and can’t do in good conscience. If you don’t feel that defending your country/the people in your country/others around the world who ask the US for help is justifiable, then military service may not be for you. On the other hand, you may find that when Jesus said, “Blessed are the Peacemakers” he wasn’t talking about no violence at any cost but about those who, through their sacrifice, make peace possible.

Good luck with your decision. God bless.

 

[beafedor]

Hello, our priest gave an interesting homily on the Sermon on the Mount:
He said that in Jewish culture, the right hand is the “noble” hand or the hand you use to eat and do “clean” things. The left hand is considered the unclean hand. So when someone was striking another on the cheek back in that day, he would use his right hand to strike the cheek. But if the person would turn the other cheek, then he would have to use the left “unclean” hand to strike; therefore the other guy wouldn’t get a blow on that side. So the priest said that Jesus was actually teaching a peaceful but yet defensive tactic to protect yourself from more harm. If you would like to contact this priest to ask more questions, message me and I’ll give you his contact info.

 

[jbarbaretta]

Hello, our priest gave an interesting homily on the Sermon on the Mount:
He said that in Jewish culture, the right hand is the “noble” hand or the hand you use to eat and do “clean” things. The left hand is considered the unclean hand. So when someone was striking another on the cheek back in that day, he would use his right hand to strike the cheek. But if the person would turn the other cheek, then he would have to use the left “unclean” hand to strike; therefore the other guy wouldn’t get a blow on that side. So the priest said that Jesus was actually teaching a peaceful but yet defensive tactic to protect yourself from more harm. If you would like to contact this priest to ask more questions, message me and I’ll give you his contact info.

I have heard this as well. It makes sense when it was explained that way.

 

[benidict]

I have absolutely no problems with being a Catholic and a Gunner. If I do have to kill, it is to protect innocent lives, and those of my battle buds. I sleep very well at night. However if you have doubts, especially if going thru one of the ROTC programs, I would seek further guidance. I assume you are attempting to become an Officer? as an Officer you have to make tough decisions that affect more than a few people. Im just specialist, but I wouldnt trade the Officers we have for anything. Peace and prayers for you.