Serving Friday Red Meat

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aball1035

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OK, random question…

When everybody followed the no red meat on friday rule, I’m wondering what servers in restaurants did when somebody ordered it. Would it be wrong it serve it to the costumers?
 
Before the Protestant Reformation, my sense is that inns did not serve meat (BTW, it isn’t just “red” meat, but includes poultry and pork) on Fridays or fast days. This continued for some time after, as I recall reading one of the Enlightenment Period authors, I think it was Voltaire, complaining that he couldn’t order meat during Lent.

Obviously, a restaurant server in the modern U.S. would have no way of knowing whether someone was Catholic. Up until very recently, and still so in many places, schools, hospitals and other institutions served fish on Fridays to accommodate Catholics. Many restaurants still have fish specials on Fridays, like clam chowder as the soup, or all-you-can-eat fishfry.

When abstaining from meat was taken seriously, it resulted in secular changes which were witnesses to the Catholic faith. Although I can understand the Church’s logic in allowing people to substitute other penances, I believe the change is one more way in which religious practice has been made invisible in every day life. One of those unintended consequences, I think.
 
It would not be wrong to serve meat to someone on Friday. After all, the customer might not be Catholic. Restaurants used to have fish specials on Fridays in order to accomodate their Catholic customers.

Regarding the abstention rule, it should be remembered that this is still the normal practice for all Catholics around the world. Here in the U. S., special permission has been granted to substitute it with a more severe penance, if you feel that abstaining from meat is not enough, on Fridays outside of Lent. This, sadly, is not realized by far too many Catholics here. All Fridays remain a day of penance for all Catholics and we are all obligated to observe that penance. The normal - universal - practice for observing that penance is to abstain from meat.

Lastly, the meaning of “meat” in regard to this practice is not just red meat. It is any flesh from a warm blooded animal. Therefore, pork and poultry, lamb, rabbit (etc.) are also prohibited.
 
It would not be wrong to serve meat to someone on Friday. After all, the customer might not be Catholic. Restaurants used to have fish specials on Fridays in order to accomodate their Catholic customers.

Regarding the abstention rule, it should be remembered that this is still the normal practice for all Catholics around the world. Here in the U. S., special permission has been granted to substitute it with a more severe penance, if you feel that abstaining from meat is not enough, on Fridays outside of Lent. This, sadly, is not realized by far too many Catholics here. All Fridays remain a day of penance for all Catholics and we are all obligated to observe that penance. The normal - universal - practice for observing that penance is to abstain from meat.

Lastly, the meaning of “meat” in regard to this practice is not just red meat. It is any flesh from a warm blooded animal. Therefore, pork and poultry, lamb, rabbit (etc.) are also prohibited.
I was thinking it has probably never been the case, even in totally Catholic societies, that EVERYONE was forced to abstain from meat. There would always have been exceptions for children and the elderly, the ill, pregnant or nursing women etc etc. Now if someone orders meat you can’t necessarily tell just by looking at them that they’re NOT a nursing mom, or ill, or necessarily that within the age limits set for abstinence either (I mean can YOU always tell a 12-year-old from a 16-year-old?)
 
I was thinking it has probably never been the case, even in totally Catholic societies, that EVERYONE was forced to abstain from meat. There would always have been exceptions for children and the elderly, the ill, pregnant or nursing women etc etc. Now if someone orders meat you can’t necessarily tell just by looking at them that they’re NOT a nursing mom, or ill, or necessarily that within the age limits set for abstinence either (I mean can YOU always tell a 12-year-old from a 16-year-old?)
I would agree. There probably were always exceptions such as those you list. The discipline is supposed to be spiritually helpful, not physically harmful. However, I believe that most of the exceptions you list are, to the best of my knowledge, only specifically listed for fasting. I believe the rule for abstaining from meat only specifically mentions the ages to which the rule applies. The principal would still apply, however, and if a genuine health need for eating meat can be shown, the exception would certainly apply.
 
I was thinking it has probably never been the case, even in totally Catholic societies, that EVERYONE was forced to abstain from meat. There would always have been exceptions for children and the elderly, the ill, pregnant or nursing women etc etc. Now if someone orders meat you can’t necessarily tell just by looking at them that they’re NOT a nursing mom, or ill, or necessarily that within the age limits set for abstinence either (I mean can YOU always tell a 12-year-old from a 16-year-old?)
…off topic, but curiosity often gets the better of me.
Lily, aren’t you Australian? Why do you spell mum like an American?
 
…off topic, but curiosity often gets the better of me.
Lily, aren’t you Australian? Why do you spell mum like an American?
I’m a proud Aussie indeed, just playing to the majority of the audience, darl. Like all those Aussie actors who bung on American accents for films.

Soon you may find me, horror of horrors, writing ‘humor’ or ‘color’ here instead of ‘humour’ or ‘colour’. 🙂

I can assure you the practice hasn’t affected, and won’t affect, my writing for purely Aussie audiences.
 
I went to a Protestant school for high school. They only served meat on Fridays during Lent. Well, they also had a salad bar. But there were usually three or four food “stations”, and on Fridays during Lent, it would always be packed with meat.
 
I’m a proud Aussie indeed, just playing to the majority of the audience, darl. Like all those Aussie actors who bung on American accents for films.

Soon you may find me, horror of horrors, writing ‘humor’ or ‘color’ here instead of ‘humour’ or ‘colour’. 🙂

I can assure you the practice hasn’t affected, and won’t affect, my writing for purely Aussie audiences.
Fair enough, though I would never lower myself to spell worng on puprose. 😛
 
When abstaining from meat was taken seriously, it resulted in secular changes which were witnesses to the Catholic faith. Although I can understand the Church’s logic in allowing people to substitute other penances, I believe the change is one more way in which religious practice has been made invisible in every day life. One of those unintended consequences, I think.
I agree with you. I think it also watered down Catholic identity. You reminded yourself you were Catholic every Friday when you ate your peanut butter and jelly or macaroni and cheese.
Regarding the abstention rule, it should be remembered that this is still the normal practice for all Catholics around the world. Here in the U. S., special permission has been granted to substitute it with a more severe penance, if you feel that abstaining from meat is not enough, on Fridays outside of Lent. This, sadly, is not realized by far too many Catholics here. All Fridays remain a day of penance for all Catholics and we are all obligated to observe that penance. The normal - universal - practice for observing that penance is to abstain from meat.
There is some dispute as to whether there is any requirement to perform penance on Fridays in the U.S. See “Is Friday Penance Required.
 
There is some dispute as to whether there is any requirement to perform penance on Fridays in the U.S. See “Is Friday Penance Required.
The above article is, however, referring only to the changes the bishops were allowed to make by decree from Rome. Therefore, in interpreting the language of the U.S. bishops, we must also look at what Rome intended in granting them that authority, for they have no authority to go beyond what Rome granted.

From Chapter III of Paenitemini (Paul VI)
Therefore, the following is declared and established:
VI. 1. In accordance with the conciliar decree Christus Dominus regarding the pastoral office of bishops, number 38,4, it is the task of episcopal conferences to:
A. Transfer for just cause the days of penitence, always taking into account the Lenten season;
B. Substitute abstinence and fast wholly or in part with other forms of penitence and especially works of charity and the exercises of piety.
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19660217_paenitemini_en.html

The fact that the bishops did not state what the substitution was, leaving it, instead, to the individual, does not mean the obligation has been nullified. The “norm” the article claims is not there is that penance must be done. The absence of “must” from the US bishops document does not override the law as promulgated by Paul VI.

Penance is absolutely required on all Fridays unless the bishops specifically transfer it, and only for a just cause. They have no authority to abolish it. The norm is to abstain from meat according to the laws of the Church. Bishops may allow Catholics to substitute abstinence with other forms of penitence, works of charity, and acts of piety. These are all offered as a penance. The intent was never to eliminate Friday penance, it was only to allow other forms of penance as a substitution for abstinence and fasting outside of Lent.
 
I’m a proud Aussie indeed, just playing to the majority of the audience, darl. Like all those Aussie actors who bung on American accents for films.
Like Anthony & Jonathan LaPaglia, Simon Baker, Heath Ledger, Poppy Montgomery (altho’ she slips a bit – I pick out a few odd pronunciations from time to time), etc. As for playing to the majority – there is no need. Tommy Atkins and Johnny Canuck populate these boards, too, so there’s no need to use that incorrect rebel dialect. 😛
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LilyM:
Soon you may find me, horror of horrors, writing ‘humor’ or ‘color’ here instead of ‘humour’ or ‘colour’. 🙂
Keep the U’s in there where they belong!
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LilyM:
I can assure you the practice hasn’t affected, and won’t affect, my writing for purely Aussie audiences.
So for them you write in Strine? 🙂

What little exposure I’ve had to Australian has been through television and film - starting when I was a little boy, watching Skippy the Bush Kangaroo (“Skippy, a friend ever true!”). Never had any trouble understanding Australian speech until I started watching “A Country Practice” and watched Bob Hatfield. Exsqueeze me? This language is English, right? :eek:

😃
 
Just as a side note, the Friday abstinence was why McDonald’s ultimately invented the Filet O’Fish.

Before that, in order to entice Catholic customers with a meatless meal, they came up with basically a cheeseburger with a pineapple ring substituted for a patty and called it a “Hula-Burger”.

You wonder what Brain Trust came up with that one. :rolleyes:
 
Like Anthony & Jonathan LaPaglia, Simon Baker, Heath Ledger, Poppy Montgomery (altho’ she slips a bit – I pick out a few odd pronunciations from time to time), etc. As for playing to the majority – there is no need. Tommy Atkins and Johnny Canuck populate these boards, too, so there’s no need to use that incorrect rebel dialect. 😛
True, but you have less problem with tricksy furrin’ ways than the Yanks seem to 🤷

Believe it or not in high school we had an English lit teacher who hailed from somewhere in the States, who after years in Australia apparently would still slip into old habits of correcting the spelling on his students’ papers to the American standard :rolleyes:
Keep the U’s in there where they belong!
Ok, just for uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu 😃
Never had any trouble understanding Australian speech until I started watching “A Country Practice” and watched Bob Hatfield. Exsqueeze me? This language is English, right? :eek:
You understood Cookie Locke (Bob’s sidekick) all right though? I’d have thunk his idiom would be more of a problem. Have to say they both used a particularly countrified manner of speech and expression - one which sadly seems to be dying out as many country towns themselves are. 😦

Anywho, as Bernard Shaw almost said, ‘Australia and Britain are two countries divided by a common language’ 😃
 
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