Sex for reproduction/pleasure

[jmr_1985]

As someone who lived a sexual immoral life basically my entire adult life until last year, I will tell you the Church is 100% correct in all its teachings on sexuality. Sex is so abused in our culture and it’s only getting worse. Those who say to the Church, “Get out of my bedroom,” say “Christ, get out of my bedroom.”

 

[Mulligan2]

You’re whining about the Church’s teachings…what else are you doing?

What am I doing? Expressing an opinion - one based on reason, logic, and common sense.

What are you doing? Denigrating someone for expressing an opinion. Highly uncharitable of you.

 

[mwncheesehead]

What am I doing? Expressing an opinion - one based on reason, logic, and common sense.

What are you doing? Denigrating someone for expressing an opinion. Highly uncharitable of you.

Mulligan, charity is not telling you what you want to feel good about hearing; it’s telling you what you ought to hear. You seem to have a problem with the Church’s teachings on sexuality and I’m not going to express warm fuzzies to you. You were griping about the Church’s teachings.

 

[Mulligan2]

Mulligan, charity is not telling you what you want to feel good about hearing; it’s telling you what you ought to hear. You seem to have a problem with the Church’s teachings on sexuality and I’m not going to express warm fuzzies to you. You were griping about the Church’s teachings.

Yet you were unable to express your opinion without doing so in a denigrating manner. As you may know, the forum moderators prefer that posters discuss the topic at hand as opposed to discussing each other. As I’ve already made my point with regard to charity, I’ll just leave it at that.

 

[fpt]

The marital act is a phenomenon in three moments: before the complete union of bodies, during the complete union of bodies, and after the complete union of bodies. The conjugal sexual love is linked with the time (time is an element of the creation, time was created by God). The marital act is the fact of making one flesh, in the human fashion with the sexual coopeation, what means a mutual and reciprocal donation of bodies, and a mutual and reciprocal donation of nudities. The marital act is, for each member of couple: an act of conjugal love, a moral obligation of conjugal love, a moral duty of conjugal love, a moral right of conjugal love, a conjugal debt, and it is also a prayer, a liturgy, a carnal language of conjugal love. The marital act is existing in order to express the conjugal love or in order to improve the bonding of conjugal love or in order to avoid the bad effect of concupiscence or in order to be an actor of the human procreation, or yet in order to have the conjugal physical fun (the cumulative intentions are morally okay, of course). The conjugal sexual love is wanted by God, only in the marriage. The carnal union of spouses, with all the human corollaries, are morally permissible, in the marriage :** the marital sexual charity is the key.**.

In the context of the marital act :

• The wife has to give her total feminity to her husband and the husband has to receive the total feminity of his wife in materiality and in intentionality, in link with the natural moral order of the marital act ; the wife has to accept her own nature (the material moral order of the female sexuality and the intentional moral order of the sexual feminity, and the material moral order of the male sexuality and the intentional moral order of the sexual masculinity) ;
• The husband has to give his total masculinity to his wife and the wife has to receive the total masculinity of her husband in materiality and in intentionality, in link with the natural moral order of the marital act; the husband has to accept his own nature (the material moral order of the male sexuality and the intentional moral order of the sexual masculinity, and the material moral order of the female sexuality and the intentional moral order of the sexual feminity);
• Thus, woman has to be a conjugal active lover on her husband and the man has to be a conjugal active lover on his wife ; and also each one has to be a passive conjugal lover : to give its own body and to receive the body of the other (both of them are an active agent and a passive agent, with the sexual cooperation in the human fashion) ;
• The Man has to accept the mechanism of his own conjugal sexuality and the woman has to accept the mechanism of her own conjugal sexuality during the three moments of the marital act ;
• Each member of couple has to avoid the Manichaeism, the Catharism, the Jansenism, the neo-Jansenism, the Puritanism, the neo-Puritanism, the Victorianism, the neo-Victorianism, the quietism, the fideism, the theoretical providentialism, the quiverfull movements, the absolute procreationsim, the absolute physiologism, the primary anti-personalism, the primary anti-phenomenologism, the radical feminism, the sexism from female, the misandry, the negationism of alterity and of the complementarity of male and female coming from women, the negationism of alterity and of the complementarity of male and female coming from men, the negationism of the sexuation coming from women, the negationism of the sexuation coming from men, the relativism of the sexuation coming from women, the relativism of the sexuation coming from men, the philosophical absurdism of the conjugal sexual morality, the theological absurdism of the conjugal sexual morality, the moralism, the rigorism, the externalism, the judgmentalism, the pharisaism, the scrupulism… about the conjugal sexuality and corrolaries. All those heresies and all these ideologies are morally wrong, each member of couple has the moral obligation to battle against each one of them in the context of the marital act, and even in all the other contexts.

The marriage is a sexed and sexual contract (body, soul and heart).

 

[fpt]

It is a summary with my own words for helping to have conscience that the catholicism is in favor of the link between the soul with his corollaries and the body with his corollaries (both of them) concerning the marital act.

1. The married woman is or should be the " New Eve of her Man " and the " Saint Mary Magdalena of her husband ", I mean: the Female, the Fiancée, the Bride, the Sweetheart, the Love, the Mistress, the Lover, the Beloved, the Muse, the Friend, the Best-friend, the Girlfriend, the Helper, the Soul-Mate, the Companion, the Partner, the Associate, the Educator, the Teacher, the Professor, the Thinker, the Philosopher, the Schoolgirl, the Pupil, the Student, the Follower, the Female Opposite Number, the Alter Ego, the Alterity, the Complementarity, the Princess, the Queen, the Doctress, the Nurse, the Guide of her Husband and the Person who reveals in him, his part of feminity and helps his masculinity: his Wife and the Potential Mother of their future children.
   And
   The married female, who is the wife, has to understand the normal sexuality of her male: wife is the teacher of the sexuality of her husband, she is, also, the professor of the sexuality of her husband, and then she is the doctress and the master of love of the sexuality of her husband. A catholic wife should have a huge consideration for her male. In her mind, man would be the most beautiful creature of the creation, he would be on the top of the natural creation wanted by God. He is her lover, her husband and her potential father of her children. For a catholic woman, he is her natural complementarity and her husband who is so divine, as he is coming from the creation of God.
2. The married man is or should be the " New Adam of his Woman " and the " Holy Beloved of his wife ", I mean: the Male, the Fiancé, the Bridegroom, the Sweetheart, the Love, the Lover, the Master, the Beloved, the Pygmalion, the Friend, the Best-friend, the boyfriend, the Helper, the Soul-Mate, the Companion, the Partner, the Associate, the Educator, the Teacher, the Professor, the Thinker, the Philosopher, the Schoolgirl, the Pupil, the Student, the Follower, the Male Opposite Number, the Alterity, the Complementarity, the Prince, the King, the Doctor, the Nurse, the Guide of his Wife and the Person who reveals in her, her part of masculinity and helps her feminity : her Husband and the Potential Father of their future children.
   And
   The married male, who is the husband, has to understand the normal sexuality of his female: Husband is the teacher of the sexuality of his wife, he is, also, the professor of the sexuality of his wife, and then he is the doctor and love’s master of the sexuality of his wife. A catholic husband should have a huge consideration for his female. In his mind, woman would be the most beautiful creature of the creation, she would be on the top of the natural creation wanted by God. She is his lover, his wife and his potential mother of his children. For a catholic man, she is his natural complementarity and his wife who is so divine, as she is coming from the creation of God.

The marriage is a sexed and sexual institution and a sexed and sexual contract. The mutual and reciprocal donation of bodies implies the mutual and reciprocal donation of nudities.
The right to the body, the right on the body, the right of the body, the sexual rights, the sexual obligations, the sexual duties, the marital request for the marital act coming from one spouse, the conjugal sexual privileges, the presumption of agreement for the marital act, the presumption of agreement of sexual touchings in order to lead the marital act and to make one flesh, in the human fashion with sexual cooperation are the natural rules.

The marital sexual charity is a right, is an obligation and is a duty for each one of members of couple: to do, not to do, to allow to do, not to allow to do, to allow not to do, to give, not to give, to allow to give, not to allow to give, to allow not to give, to receive, not to receive, to allow to receive, not to allow to receive, to allow not to receive, to take, not to take, to allow to take, not to allow to take, to allow not to take, to offer, not to offer, to allow to offer, not to allow to offer, to allow not to offer.

“The fact of making one flesh, in the human fashion with sexual cooperation” means what??? The right of caresses, the obligation of caresses, the duty of caresses, the conjugal Holy erotism, to give the body and to receive the body (the acces to the body of the other, to offer, to receive, to take, to give, to do, to let doing, to let giving).

The fact of being* the passive agent and the active agent *of the marital act, with all the human corollaries in the conjugal physical love, is a beatiful gift of the marriage. By the marital act with all the human corollaries, we are in physical union, and we are in spiritual union / emotional union of body and soul.

The fact of seeing the other in the complete sexual emotion of the marital act during the conjugal carnal love is so good:* it is natural and very moral.* It is a right of trying, it is an obligation of means, it is a duty of means, it is the conjugal sexual charity of the marital act.

 

[fpt]

I have to admit that I find the discussion of how things should be done as in ‘they can do this and that so long as they end up with penis inside vagina for emission’… to be weird. I prefer the old approach of prohibitions against masturbation, mutual masterbation, sodomy and unclean practices (mouths and genitals aren’t meant for each other), to be more appropriate. Lets all use our common sense in the fine details.

You have to define all those sins (masturbation, mutual masturbation, sodomy and unclean practices)??? Are you a follower of the moral theology of the marital act of Ronald Conte jr??? If yes, why??? What is your understanding of catholic morality of the marital act???
**

Definition is so important???**

But the discussion about chastity and how it serves human dignity, is really vital in todays world or competing ideologies, many of which seek to non-exist nature, God and our eternal destiny.

Did you know that there was broad consensus in Christianity in the past regarding human sexuality? The shift in attitude has come from the Protestant side who’ve chosen to conform more to the secular attitudes about sex. Did you realise that even Protestants prohibited artificial contraception? A the Lambeth Conference of 1930, the Protestant union passed a resolution allowing artificial contraception in cases of genuine hardship but stressed unequivocally ‘the Conference records its strong condemnation of the use of any methods of conception control from motives of selfishness, luxury, or mere convenience.’

lambethconference.org/resolutions/1930/1930-15.cfm

Most people don’t appeal to hardship in using contraception, but believe it to be a right of nature for convenience. That’s a false belief.

The Church is not ‘creating ill-conceived rules’ regarding sexual norms… she is promoting the dignity of man in relation to our sexual faculties and protecting it from hedonistic abuse.

 

[alex99]

I think God wanted us to enjoy sex as we see fit.

He didn’t want lots of rules about when and where.

He would want us to respect his work, and appreciate it for what it is.

The Church, as it has been required to, over the millennia has made the rules to respond to the way we live in our society, and to enable the church to grow - ie have more catholic families.

These rules are dynamic and changing all the time. God in his wisdom will adapt the system to best help his people as we change. There will always be people ahead of the curve and behind the curve, and so the rules cannot cater for everyone. Wisdom and tolerance is needed to understand Gods application of the rules and they dynamism, it must be remembered the rules only apply to the majority of Catholics and not the leaders and laggards.

 

[on_the_hill]

Wow. This is all poetic and beautiful and deep, but really? If I had to keep all of those heavy ideals in mind I’d fall asleep before anything happened. I’m being only half facetious.

Seems to me as if there’s a fairly simple, basic way of thinking about this, which is to say, “make it uniative and ordered toward procreation,” and all the rest of it is extrapolation for the sake of extrapolation.

Whatever you and your wife do during the so-called marital act is of little consequence so long as the act is ultimately uniative and ordered toward procreation.

 

[LongingSoul]

Originally Posted by LongingSoul
I have to admit that I find the discussion of how things should be done as in ‘they can do this and that so long as they end up with penis inside vagina for emission’… to be weird. I prefer the old approach of prohibitions against masturbation, mutual masterbation, sodomy and unclean practices (mouths and genitals aren’t meant for each other), to be more appropriate. Lets all use our common sense in the fine details.

I’m not familiar with Ronald Conte jr, but I think we have good general guidelines regarding marital chastity and our sexual lives, along with a bit of common sense regarding general healthy practices regarding that area of the body.

 

[Rau]

Yes the OP is overly worried. But why? Why do people obsess about such things? Simply because the “church” does. If you read through many past threads around here, you will see that a lot of Catholics do have a mental checklist going. Marital relations, at least good relations, should be natural, without having a checklist in mind. But unfortunately there is this underlying thought that much of what people do, even within marriage, is possibly wrong or sinful, unless it **exactly conforms to the requirement that it be “procreative”. ** This always seems to trump the “unitive” aspects of sexual relations, at least in the view of the “church”.

Do you feel it [the bolded text] is a hard to understand, hard to conform with requirement? “Ejaculate inside your wife”. That’s it. You make it sound like there is this 100 page user manual that’s difficult to follow, with a high chance of getting it wrong on some technicality!

There is no “trumping” involved . Unitive and procreative are two requirements. And it means sex is to be loving, and ejaculation is inside the wife.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Yes the OP is overly worried. But why? Why do people obsess about such things? Simply because the “church” does. If you read through many past threads around here, you will see that a lot of Catholics do have a mental checklist going. Marital relations, at least good relations, should be natural, without having a checklist in mind. But unfortunately there is this underlying thought that much of what people do, even within marriage, is possibly wrong or sinful, unless it exactly conforms to the requirement that it be “procreative”. This always seems to trump the “unitive” aspects of sexual relations, at least in the view of the “church”.

Let me take the idea of the 75 year old couple a step further. What if “normal” intercourse causes too much discomfort for the wife? What if the husband can’t “finish”, as an earlier poster put it? Seriously, I have seen posts where people said that any married couple beyond the age of being able to conceive should stop having sex…period. They think that is the only way to correctly adhere to Catholic teaching.

The fact that our OP, and many others, worry about these things, tells me that there is a lot of inadequate knowledge and mis-understanding about all of this. Think about this: If the OP didn’t have this forum in which to ask his question, to whom would he go to get a good answer? Quickly and easily?

I really don’t think there is an obsession but it might appear to be because of all the questions. Basically, individual Catholics are given information on sexuality; some of this is too strict (Ron Conte), some of it is to lenient (contraception) and some of it is just right. Faithful Catholics want to do the right things and when we get contradicting information we have to ask questions. Even if the information is readily available there a tendency by some to look for a special circumstance (loop hole) that might apply in the askers situation making them exempt, but sometimes it’s for clarification.