Sex, heaven, and C.S. Lewis

[desales09]

I read this profound quote by C.S. Lewis concerning sex and heaven:

“The letter and spirit of scripture, and of all Christianity, forbid us to suppose that life in the New Creation will be a sexual life; and this reduces our imagination to the withering alternatives either of bodies which are hardly recognizable as human bodies at all or else of a perpetual fast. As regards the fast, I think our present outlook might be like that of a small boy who, on being told that the sexual act was the highest bodily pleasure, should immediately ask whether you ate chocolates at the same time. On receiving the answer ‘No,’ he might regard [the] absence of chocolates as the chief characteristic of sexuality. In vain would you tell him that the reason why lovers in their raptures don’t bother about chocolates is that they have something better to think of. The boy knows chocolate: he does not know the positive thing that excludes it. We are in the same position. We know the sexual life; we do not know, except in glimpses, the other thing which, in Heaven, will leave no room for it.”

Let’s face it: Sex is looked upon by many people as one of the highest (if not THE highest) experiences available to mankind. If I’m honest, as a 32 year old unmarried male, sometimes I feel as though that’s the truth. To be clear, I am not denying that sex and marriage are among the highest earthly goods - I am addressing the feeling that many of us have had at one time or another that there simply could not be anything higher than the sexual experience, in this life or in the next. This thread is for those who want to discuss the most effective ways - philosophical, spiritual, or otherwise - of shattering that illusion.

 

[thinkandmull]

It’s got something to do with agape love.

Although Benedict XVI said that God could have eros love of us (desire of need). Confusing…

 

[Prodigirl]

I read this profound quote by C.S. Lewis concerning sex and heaven:

“The letter and spirit of scripture, and of all Christianity, forbid us to suppose that life in the New Creation will be a sexual life; and this reduces our imagination to the withering alternatives either of bodies which are hardly recognizable as human bodies at all or else of a perpetual fast. As regards the fast, I think our present outlook might be like that of a small boy who, on being told that the sexual act was the highest bodily pleasure, should immediately ask whether you ate chocolates at the same time. On receiving the answer ‘No,’ he might regard [the] absence of chocolates as the chief characteristic of sexuality. In vain would you tell him that the reason why lovers in their raptures don’t bother about chocolates is that they have something better to think of. The boy knows chocolate: he does not know the positive thing that excludes it. We are in the same position. We know the sexual life; we do not know, except in glimpses, the other thing which, in Heaven, will leave no room for it.”

Let’s face it: Sex is looked upon by many people as one of the highest (if not THE highest) experiences available to mankind. If I’m honest, as a 32 year old unmarried male, sometimes I feel as though that’s the truth. To be clear, I am not denying that sex and marriage are among the highest earthly goods - I am addressing the feeling that many of us have had at one time or another that there simply could not be anything higher than the sexual experience, in this life or in the next. This thread is for those who want to discuss the most effective ways - philosophical, spiritual, or otherwise - of shattering that illusion.

You are young. As you age, your experiences will shape your thinking. You will learn more about your world. You may come to understand the depth and scope of love, which suspicion and fear have kept me from ever being able to grasp. Your body will change. You won’t always be in the shape you are now; some things will not work as well as they do today. Companionship, tenderness, open communication, shared interests with another person, may become more important to you than sex. Nothing this world has to offer would appeal to you more as a 32-year-old man. But life changes people. You don’t have to shatter your illusion. Living will do it for you.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

It’s got something to do with agape love.

Although Benedict XVI said that God could have eros love of us (desire of need). Confusing…

Eros is not need-love. Eros is love based on the desire to fully unite with the beloved – to consummate, as it were. The language of it is sexual, but the uniting need not be sexual. (Obviously, in God’s case, it isn’t.)

The Bible speaks of knowing and being known by the Lord. That’s clearly eros, not agape.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

When I first read the title of this thread, I thought someone was wondering if imagining sex with C.S. Lewis, once they get to heaven, was sinful.

It takes all kinds, I suppose.

 

[Della]

Lewis also wrote in “That Hideous Strength” that our bodies will be transformed, caught up into spiritual, glorified bodies like Christ’s even though we will retain our human characteristics. It’s not that sex is an evil we must leave behind, or a desire that we cannot do without, it’s that it will be fulfilled, just as Christ’s redemption fuffilled the law–it simply won’t be necessary any more.

 

[808Catholic]

God designed humans to receive the gift of sex in marriage and He created our bodies specifically so sex is pleasurable. What greater gift can God have for us in Heaven? We don’t know but I believe the pleasure we receive in sexual union with our spouses will be eclipsed by the incredible joy we’ll have in God’s Presence. God Bless you.

 

[aglow]

This is a question I hear a lot from my secular friends. I look back to deep moments of prayer where love, peace and joy exceed anything experienced here on earth tenfold. If we experience that here on earth, I am confident that the Lord has treasures beyond our comprehension in heaven. Our job is to stay faithful and to love.

 

[hasantas]

…“The letter and spirit of scripture, and of all Christianity, forbid us to suppose that life in the New Creation will be a sexual life; …

Which place is more close to God? Earth or Heaven? For God everywhere is same. God will not see human in Heaven nore clear but God see everywhere without any objection. For human on the world eating, drinking and sexual pleasure are more importand than others. So these pleasures will be in Heaven more highly, pleasureful. Quran and Hadiths explaination this issue very clearly. Just think if God isolate human from that pleasures in Heaven would not all thanks, regard and belessing of human converse and traverse against God as grudge and disrespect? Spiritual pleasure is not enough to be happy. But drinking, eating and sex will not be necessity but for pleasure.

 

[Della]

Which place is more close to God? Earth or Heaven? For God everywhere is same. God will not see human in Heaven nore clear but God see everywhere without any objection. For human on the world eating, drinking and sexual pleasure are more importand than others. So these pleasures will be in Heaven more highly, pleasureful. Quran and Hadiths explaination this issue very clearly. Just think if God isolate human from that pleasures in Heaven would not all thanks, regard and belessing of human converse and traverse against God as grudge and disrespect? Spiritual pleasure is not enough to be happy. But drinking, eating and sex will not be necessity but for pleasure.

These earthly delights are only natural in nature. Heaven supercedes all earthly pleasures for God himself is the true delight of heaven in which all taste of him without the hindrances of fleshly wants and needs. This is why we need God’s grace to truly do good without any taint of selfishness/fleshly desires. Without God’s grace no one can please him for we are all sinners in need of God’s grace.

 

[hasantas]

These earthly delights are only natural in nature. Heaven supercedes all earthly pleasures for God himself is the true delight of heaven in which all taste of him without the hindrances of fleshly wants and needs. This is why we need God’s grace to truly do good without any taint of selfishness/fleshly desires. Without God’s grace no one can please him for we are all sinners in need of God’s grace.

A hadith:

1000 years happiness of earthly life can not be equal to 1 hour life of Heaven. And 1000 years happiness of Heavens life can not be equal to 1 hour that human may be by or see God.

Ofcourse sources of all pleasure is God but that does not mean other fleshly pleasure can not be.

Paradise is a gift of grace and mercy of God. We can not gain paradise with our good deeds but only with God’s grace.

You can believe and recognize that God can get in flesh but human with his flesh can not get in Heavens?

 

[Nihilist]

The pleasure of sex is overated. It is merely a momentary spasm, followed by emission of fluids. Objectively, sex is no more pleasurable than masterbation- and, indeed, perhaps less so, because of the trouble associated with it. And everything leading up to it (i.e. leading up to this momentary spasm) , is, if viewed merely physically, is basically repulsive- the sexual mechanism is closely associated with the mechanism for expelling physical wastes.

It is only blind instinct which causes people to esteem an animal behaviour. Our culture doesn’t help, in constantly promoting sex as the highest pleasure.

I think a post-sexual culture is emerging, among post-modern young people. In the same way, smoking has largely died out, so will sex, as habits which brings no real happiness, but complicates life, and is expensive (dating, marriage, raising a family). Marriage has virtually died out in the West- sex is the next thing to go.

Sex, again is like smoking in other ways. The more you do it, the more you want it. But if you give it, the craving will soon weaken.

 

[Della]

A hadith:

1000 years happiness of earthly life can not be equal to 1 hour life of Heaven. And 1000 years happiness of Heavens life can not be equal to 1 hour that human may be by or see God.

Ofcourse sources of all pleasure is God but that does not mean other fleshly pleasure can not be.

Paradise is a gift of grace and mercy of God. We can not gain paradise with our good deeds but only with God’s grace.

You can believe and recognize that God can get in flesh but human with his flesh can not get in Heavens?

The flesh will be glorified like Christ’s glorified body. It will have fulfilled its purpose–that of bringing us to God. Our total delight will be God, not the flesh.

 

[Della]

The pleasure of sex is overated. It is merely a momentary spasm, followed by emission of fluids. Objectively, sex is no more pleasurable than masterbation- and, indeed, perhaps less so, because of the trouble associated with it. And everything leading up to it (i.e. leading up to this momentary spasm) , is, if viewed merely physically, is basically repulsive- the sexual mechanism is closely associated with the mechanism for expelling physical wastes.

It is only blind instinct which causes people to esteem an animal behaviour. Our culture doesn’t help, in constantly promoting sex as the highest pleasure.

I think a post-sexual culture is emerging, among post-modern young people. In the same way, smoking has largely died out, so will sex, as habits which brings no real happiness, but complicates life, and is expensive (dating, marriage, raising a family). Marriage has virtually died out in the West- sex is the next thing to go.

Sex, again is like smoking in other ways. The more you do it, the more you want it. But if you give it, the craving will soon weaken.

O dear, we’ve gone from fleshly pleasures in heaven by our Islamic friend to a denial of the flesh here. Oye!

Sex is not a mere bad habit that people can get over. It’s intrensic to our natural state of being. It will not disappear on its own no matter how preverted people make it. Without it none of us would be here to discuss it. It’s how God determined that most living creatures will procreate. That it’s pleasureable for us is his way of making it unitive and a blessing. Sex isn’t all that much fun for some species–they are driven to it in ways we humans are not. Ask a female cat if she thinks it’s so wonderful. It isn’t for her, still she must do it–it’s too deeply engrained in her nature not to do it. For humans it’s different. We can forego it with no real problems. Abstainance is easily practiced if we wish to do that. Sex will be completed when we are glorified like Christ, but it’s not going to simply vanish through falling out of fashion.

 

[oldcelt]

The pleasure of sex is overated. It is merely a momentary spasm, followed by emission of fluids. Objectively, sex is no more pleasurable than masterbation- and, indeed, perhaps less so, because of the trouble associated with it. And everything leading up to it (i.e. leading up to this momentary spasm) , is, if viewed merely physically, is basically repulsive- the sexual mechanism is closely associated with the mechanism for expelling physical wastes.

It is only blind instinct which causes people to esteem an animal behaviour. Our culture doesn’t help, in constantly promoting sex as the highest pleasure.

I think a post-sexual culture is emerging, among post-modern young people. In the same way, smoking has largely died out, so will sex, as habits which brings no real happiness, but complicates life, and is expensive (dating, marriage, raising a family). Marriage has virtually died out in the West- sex is the next thing to go.

Sex, again is like smoking in other ways. The more you do it, the more you want it. But if you give it, the craving will soon weaken.

I concur that marriage is dying, but I don’t think that your arguments with sex are valid for the vast majority of the populace in the western world. They have simply taken away the expensive parts and kept the pleasure.

 

[Della]

I concur that marriage is dying, but I don’t think that your arguments with sex are valid for the vast majority of the populace in the western world. They have simply taken away the expensive parts and kept the pleasure.

Wow, how jaded. Um, marriage doesn’t have to be expensive. Nowhere in Church teaching does it say that people have to put on a big show and spend a lot of money in order to get married. Besides that, the only things in life worth having are those that cost us something, be it money, time, effort or talent. Otherwise one may as well live alone in a desert and make do with whatever happens to come along.

And there is nothing truly pleaureable about sex without love and commitment. Your idea is a romantic fiction not reality. Most people who live that life style end up bored and unhappy instead of fulfilled by having invested themselves in someone other than themselves.

 

[Thorns]

Lewis also wrote in “That Hideous Strength” that our bodies will be transformed, caught up into spiritual, glorified bodies like Christ’s even though we will retain our human characteristics. It’s not that sex is an evil we must leave behind, or a desire that we cannot do without, it’s that it will be fulfilled, just as Christ’s redemption fuffilled the law–it simply won’t be necessary any more.

Cheesecake, music, and movies are not necessary yet God gave them to us and they bring us much joy, even if there are deepers joys here to be experienced too.

I dont see why God wouldnt just allow it just because. Im sure he allowed Adam and Eve to have senseless sex in the Garden of Eden. And Heaven in the Bible is described as a banquet and feast, why would food be necessary? God put too much thought into the simple joys of this world simply to throw it all away in the end. There could very well be these simple pleasures as well as deeper happiness at the same time, they’re not exactly exclusive.

Also, for people who go their whole lives without sex and die virgins they will never know the pleasures of sex apparently, not even in Heaven. That seems pretty depressing and harsh.

 

[Thorns]

1. 
   

   The flesh will be glorified like Christ’s glorified body. It will have fulfilled its purpose–that of bringing us to God. Our total delight will be God, not the flesh.

   But we will be reunited with our bodies at the end of the world. If the flesh already served its purpose, why the need for reunification?
   
   Dont forget that humans are not creatures of pure spirit, we are also corporal. Angels are pure spirit, animals are pure flesh, humans are flesh and spirit!
   
   It only makes sense that what we do here and now will exist later but in a glorified sense.

 

[Thorns]

Wow, how jaded. Um, marriage doesn’t have to be expensive. Nowhere in Church teaching does it say that people have to put on a big show and spend a lot of money in order to get married. Besides that, the only things in life worth having are those that cost us something, be it money, time, effort or talent. Otherwise one may as well live alone in a desert and make do with whatever happens to come along.

And there is nothing truly pleaureable about sex without love and commitment. Your idea is a romantic fiction not reality. Most people who live that life style end up bored and unhappy instead of fulfilled by having invested themselves in someone other than themselves.

Actually, I think the best things in life are the things that cost nothing. The beauty of nature, friendship, familial love, God’s mercy and unconditional love.

 

[bmonk]

To return to the original post

This thread is for those who want to discuss the most effective ways - philosophical, spiritual, or otherwise - of shattering that illusion [that there simply could not be anything higher than the sexual experience, in this life or in the next].

One way might be to ask those who have given up the state of marriage for the sake of the Kingdom. There are both men and women who for centuries have embraced celibacy to seek God more directly. Their consuming passion does not allow them to do justice to spouse and family as well, and so rather than do a half-measure, they remain chaste and give up the sexual relationship.

For that matter, we could look to Jesus himself–we believe him to be the most human of all persons–his divinity enabled him to be more human in his self-expression than anyone else–but he did not marry or indulge in sexual pleasure by ancient Church tradition. Why not, if sexuality is the highest human experience?

Also, I suspect that those who have lived a full marriage for many years tend to move beyond the sexual experience into deeper forms of self-giving.

All of this leads me to believe that it is not the pleasure or intensity of the sexual experience that make it a contender for the highest form of human experience. In a mature person, it is the giving of self in love–and there are many forms of love beyond the purely sexual–that is the highest human experience.