Should Catholics get marriage licenses?

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Semper_Fi_1

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I’ve always had trouble with the fact that most governments of the world (if not all), only consider a marriage valid if one has a “marriage license”. Should it be legally required that we must have a “marriage license” in order to be “married”? I’ve always thought of the Sacrament of Marriage as a union between a man, a woman and God. Where does the government have the right to say whether or not I’m married just because I obtained (or didn’t obtain) a “license”? What are your opinions?
 
It is another way for cities/municipalities to raise money. You would need some kind of documentation for tax purposes, etc. so you pay for it at city hall.
 
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mjdonnelly:
It is another way for cities/municipalities to raise money. You would need some kind of documentation for tax purposes, etc. so you pay for it at city hall.
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Yes, I understand this. But the church should be able to hand those out.
 
If it were left up to the Church to hand out the license, all those other churches would have been doing same-sex marriages a long time ago
 
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mjdonnelly:
If it were left up to the Church to hand out the license, all those other churches would have been doing same-sex marriages a long time ago
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I don’t see that as a problem myself because those aren’t real marriages in the eyes of God anyway.
 
As Jesus said give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s. The government has the right if you are wanting to claim anything throught the government as a married couple. If you only stay in the church for all your needs (which as far as I know is impossible) then your marriage is truly between you, your spouse and God, and the government has no say. The marriage licence just says you are eligible to get married, it is not the marriage itself. Some one can correct me if I am wrong but say you get divorced, you would have to show a marriage certificate (church certificate or JP) to the court not the licence. The licence just said your were eligible, not that you actually got married.
 
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PKK:
As Jesus said give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s.
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The response of Jesus when his enemies tried to trap him by asking whether it was right for the Jews, whose nation had been taken over by the Roman Empire, to pay tribute to the Roman emperor. He took a Roman coin that would be used to pay the tribute and asked whose picture was on it; his questioners answered, “Caesar’s.” The reply of Jesus implied that in using Roman coins, the Jews accepted the rule of the Romans, and so the Roman government had the right to tax them, as long as the Jews were not compromising their religious duties. Jesus’ more general point was, “Give to worldly authorities the things that belong to them, and to God what belongs to God.”
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How does “Render unto Caesar” have anything to do with this? 😉

And also, the only argument I am trying to make is that once one is married inside the church is that the government should accept that without validating it themselves.
 
I think that the U.S. is one of the few places where one ceremony takes care of both the religious and civil aspects of marriage. In several countries, you get married before a judge and then go to a priest for the sacramental marriage. Here, a preacher (and that can be defined pretty loosely) is able to witness (perform) both aspects of a marriage. As an aside to this thread, I’ve used this to explain why an annullment doesn’t make children illigitimate. All the annullment does is say no sacramental marriage was present but a civil one was. In the U.S., we don’t see those as two separate parts because both happened at the same time.

Anyway, the government does have some legal and acceptable interest in determining if a marriage is civilly valid. When I claim married on my taxes or inheritance of property are two quick examples.

Kris
 
Sorry, I guess I remembered the passage a little differently or interpreted it differently. However, my thinking was that we want government to help us (I realize not all of us, I am generalizing here) with say welfare, or divorce or any other of the numerous things the government helps with. It is their way of trying to make sure that people are eligible to be married, they are not validating the marriage. To prove or validate that the marriage has taken place you need to provide either a certificate of Marriage by a JP or a church/minister. But again records need to be kept (where do the statistics come from). I have encountered people who ask me (I am a church secretary) do I really need to get a licence? Do I really need to do the blood tests? Do I really need??? Now I ask myself, is there a problem that does not want to be found out, or is this a ligit question? I am not in the position to find out. Maybe I am being sceptical, but I would hate to be in error. The church allows the legality of the licence as it does not affect the morals of the church. Another way for me to look a it is in the light of driving. You need a permit to begin to learn to drive (you are eligible for a drivers license at the completion of drivers training) Then you get your drivers licence. The marriage licence is your permit, be married either legally or sacramentally or both the choice is yours. Let me end with this, with working in the Church office you will be surprised at the number of people who will try to get around the government, by doing things through the church, then want the government to recognize what the church has done as legal. They are two different entities. U.S. Citizenship is a biggy.
 
PKK, i think you got that meanign of that passage right. That’s what I took from it anyway.

The marriage lisence is government documentation. This is to ensure that the marital rights you recieve once you are married are being recieved validly. I know that in Canada, taxes are different if you are married. The student loans in ontario give you more money if you are married, but you need proof, so there’s the lisence. You have to pay for it becuase you have to pay for anything from the government.
 
Good Morning

Very interesting thread.
Several years ago, I read an article in the paper about this very thing.
The tax laws had gotten so bad for elderly married folks here in the United States, that it was less expensive to be single than married. Elderly Catholic folks who had been married in the Church were getting divorced and then living together. I remember that their Priests were assisting them somehow. I don’t remember if they were renewing their wedding vows or how it was being done. They knew in Gods’ eyes they were validly married but they ceased being gouged by unfair tax laws.

I don’t know if that practice is still happening or not. I have not heard that the Church ever opposed it.
 
Its because not everyone belongs to a church and they want to get married at city hall by a justice of the peace. And because, marriage is more than a ‘spiritual union’ they get government benefits so the government is involved in it. It is a legal union also.
 
Marriage isn’t simply a religious thing anymore. Taxes, property ownership, next of kin, child rearing, and God forbid, spousal privledge are all very important things in this era, and require a valid marriage licences issued by the state.

I want a tax break because I’m married, but telling the IRS when they come to audit me, “But I don’t NEED a marriage licence! I’m a CATHOLIC, and my marriage was witnessed by GOD!!!” is still going to secure me a sentence a Leavenworth.

Your “spouse” dies, Now all of your belongings become property of the state, while they appoint an attorney to take their sweet time compiling how much your stuff is worth to pay taxes on it, and their fees. You could lose your home, your savings, and have to sell off heirlooms to pay the fees and death tax. Thereby screwing your children from things you wanted them to have after you passed.

Your in a car accident when your 45. You haven’t spoken to your parents in years or you have a 15 year old child,your spiritual husbanddoesn’t have the right to say, donate her organs, or use extrodinary measures. Instead the burden has been placed on your parents who haven’t spoken to you in years, or your young child.

And spousal priveledge is important in criminal hearings, if lets say your spouse was participating in crimes, and he had said something to you, you can’t say you aren’t going to talk about it cause your married.
 
This is how I break it down for myself:

Civil marriage equals civil recognition and Church marriage equals Church recognition - unfortunately BOTH are necessary in today’s society.
 
the priest who married my husband and me wouldn’t allow anyone to have a Catholic wedding unless they already had a marriage license from the county. The fee for the license was very small too - so I don’t think the govt rakes in loads of profit from it.
 
The marriage licence is not a civil marriage. It is only a statement that you are eligilble for marriage, whether it be civil or christian, and both are not necessary. The church does require it because, it is required by law, and does nothing to go against Catholic teaching.
 
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Minerva:
the priest who married my husband and me wouldn’t allow anyone to have a Catholic wedding unless they already had a marriage license from the county. The fee for the license was very small too - so I don’t think the govt rakes in loads of profit from it.
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The money isn’t the issue here, it’s the issue of what marriage itself is. I believe the gov has overstepped its boundaries and changed the meaning of marriage from a union between man woman and God to the union between man woman God and government.
 
Marriage licenses in most states serve a function of inserting a waiting period of at least one night between one’s decision to marry and the actual “solemnization.” This at least theoretically prevents the spontaneous Vegas weddings that get “annulled” anyhow.
 
Semper Fi:
Should it be legally required that we must have a “marriage license” in order to be “married”?
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The state has a legitimate need (or desire) to regulate marriage. For example, it is in the state’s interest to prohibit incestous marriages. The marriage license is the instrument that the state uses for this regulation.
Semper Fi:
Where does the government have the right to say whether or not I’m married just because I obtained (or didn’t obtain) a “license”?
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Kind of like the old theory of the “Divine Right of Kings”, the Catholic Church teaches us that right comes to the state from God, who makes the state His steward for matters of civil authority. So, as good Catholics, it is our duty to be good citizens, and to obey all civil requirements that are not contrary to the Church’s teachings.
 
If you are getting married and the state requires a marriage license, get it. It is required to get the state-issued marriage certificate. You may easily need the marriage certificate later for legal purposes.

If either spouse goes into political life and they are married, and the newspapers can’t find the marriage certificate.

If either spouse gets a job at a government agency and needs security clearance. They may check into the legality of the marriage by looking up the certificate.

If you move to another country and have children, the other country will likely need to see the birth certificates and marriage certificate before granting residency or citizenship.

Family coverage health insurance. If the spouse has a very severe illness, the insurance company or re-insurance company may investigate to determine if there is a valid marriage and therefore valid insurance coverage.

To get legally divorced, you needed to have a marriage certificate in the first place. From what I understand, you cannot file for a Catholic annulment without first getting the legal divorce (here in US).
 
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