Should I convert to Orthodoxy or Eastern Catholicism?

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Nine_Two said:
What absolute rubbish you spew.

Every Bishop is the successor to Peter, this is very clear from Patristics.
We are quite united with ourselves. I suggest you look in a mirror before making such accusations though. Sedevacantists seem to be something of an issue in the Roman Church.

When the last Ecumenical Council was depends on who you ask. The last one universally excepted as Ecumenical was in the 8th century, however there have been a few since then that are considered quite important. There is even one in the planning stages now. Whether it will go through, God knows. Such Councils aren’t all that important, however, as they are only called when major issues need a resolution. We have some issues right now, but for much of the last thousand years, there hasn’t been anything all that big.

Your last point is the worst of all. If you were so interested in unity, and we are not, why are we having this conversation on a Catholic forum? As long as so many Latins (a majority but thankfully not the totality) insist on being so woefully ignorant about us, there will be no unity.
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+1.
 
The practical differences between the Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox are quite small. However, for your family’s sake, I would very much hesitate to join a church not in communion with your wife and children.

BTW, as another poster noted, I think that your understanding of papal infallibility is in error.
 
PaulfromIowa said:
The practical differences between the Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox are quite small. However, for your family’s sake, I would very much hesitate to join a church not in communion with your wife and children.

BTW, as another poster noted, I think that your understanding of papal infallibility is in error.
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+1
 
pdstor,

Here are my two cents on this. First, and foremost, continue to pray about where God wants you. Ultimately, as I’m sure you know, it is up to you to decide and, in time, God will lead you to the correct location. For me, at present, I see no reason for you to not be Catholic. You feel already stated that you feel “neither the Orthodox nor Catholic have lost the core of the fullness of faith as fertile soil for repentance, charity, love for God, and salvation.” If this is the case, side with Catholicism. Here are my reasons, in no particular order.
  1. Your family is Catholic. It is a great blessing to share the same faith and be in communion with your family.
  2. Since you have children and need to raise them in the Catholic faith, being Catholic would help be assured of the faith that is taught to them.
  3. You may fulfill your Sunday obligation at any Catholic Church (and you can commune there) or, as your deacon mentioned, at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy (without communion) due to a dispensation. Besides, in this scenario you could potentially commune at nearby Latin Mass on Saturday evening and then still go to the Orthodox Church for DL on Sunday. If you were Orthodox and went to a Catholic DL or Mass every other week, you would also be forcing yourself to skip receiving our Lord in the Eucharist when you went there that week, even if you were properly disposed to receive Him. 😦
  4. If your Orthodox Church has Vespers, Matins, Akathists, etc., you may still go there for all of those without issue.
  5. Even though a Catholic, you could still venerate all of the Orthodox saints without any issue. It is my understanding, though, that it is frowned upon for the Orthodox to venerate Catholic saints (and other Catholic devotions such as the Divine Mercy Chaplet) in most cases, unless one’s spiritual director says otherwise.
So, ultimately, you need to do what you feel God is calling you toward. Since you asked for advice, though, I would choose the Catholic Church for the reasons outlined above. I’m in a similar boat, so I’m not just saying things to say things. I’m a Roman Catholic who attends Mass and DL at my local Catholic Churches, and I attend Vespers, Akathists, Matins, etc. at my local Orthodox Church. My prayers are with you. :highprayer:
 
pdstor said:
I…That would leave the Roman Catholic and Orthodox faiths, and a decision between those two has been rattling in my head and going through a variety of ups and downs for over five months now. … I have confirmed with the deacon at the nearest Eastern Catholic church (Melkite) in Nebraska that our family’s attendance at an Orthodox liturgy fulfills Sunday mass obligation, due to a dispensation that is in place for those who find a true spiritual advantage in Eastern liturgies but who cannot reasonably make it to Eastern Catholic churches…
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Catholics (east or west) are only obliged to assist in a Catholic ritual Church (there are 23). If this is is morally impossible, there is no obligation for the Mass or Divine Liturgy. Catholics are never required to attend a non-Catholic Church. (Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart in Ankeny is likely to be your wife’s proper parish if she is a Latin Catholic.) The Melkites have different canon law (CCEO) than the Latin Church. The canons apply to the faithful based upon their church of canonical enrollment (by adult baptism if not baptized as an infant in which case, of the Catholic parent or guardian that raised them in the faith).

Latin Canon Law (CIC) Can. 1 The canons of this Code regard only the Latin Church.

Can. 1248
§1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.
§2. If participation in the eucharistic celebration becomes impossible because of the absence of a sacred minister or for another grave cause, it is strongly recommended that the faithful take part in a liturgy of the word if such a liturgy is celebrated in a parish church or other sacred place according to the prescripts of the diocesan bishop or that they devote themselves to prayer for a suitable time alone, as a family, or, as the occasion permits, in groups of families.
Eastern Canon Law (CCEO) Canon 1
The canons of this Code affect all and solely the Eastern Catholic Churches, unless, with regard to relations with the Latin Church, it is expressly stated otherwise.

Canon 881
  1. The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises.
  2. In order for the Christian faithful to fulfill this obligation more easily, the available time runs from the evening of the vigil until the end of the Sunday or feast day.
  3. The Christian faithful are strongly recommended to receive the Divine Eucharist on these days and indeed more frequently, even daily.
  4. The Christian faithful should abstain from those labors or business matters which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord’s day, or to the proper relaxation of mind and body.
    Other References:
Regarding non-Catholic liturgical participation, 118 below pertains to vespers (non-sacramental) and 115, 122, 123 to sacraments.

In 1993 was given the DIRECTORY FOR THE APPLICATION OF PRINCIPLES AND NORMS ON ECUMENISM 115. Since the celebration of the Eucharist on the Lord’s Day is the foundation and centre of the whole liturgical year, [120] Catholics—but those of Eastern Churches according to their own Law [121]—are obliged to attend Mass on that day and on days of precept. [122] It is not advisable therefore to organize ecumenical services on Sundays, and it must be remembered that even when Catholics participate in ecumenical services or in services of other Churches and ecclesial Communities, the obligation of participating at Mass on these days remains.

a) Sharing in Sacramental Life with members of the various Eastern Churches
  1. Between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Churches not in full communion with it, there is still a very close communion in matters of faith. [125] Moreover, “through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches, the Church of God is built up and grows in stature” and “although separated from us, these Churches still possess true sacraments, above all—by apostolic succession—the priesthood and the Eucharist…”. [126] This offers ecclesiological and sacramental grounds, according to the understanding of the Catholic Church, for allowing and even encouraging some sharing in liturgical worship, even of the Eucharist, with these Churches, “given suitable circumstances and the approval of church authorities”. [127] It is recognized, however, that Eastern Churches, on the basis of their own ecclesiological understanding, may have more restrictive disciplines in this matter, which others should respect. Pastors should carefully instruct the faithful so that they will be clearly aware of the proper reasons for this kind of sharing in liturgical worship and of the variety of discipline which may exist in this connection.
  2. Whenever necessity requires or a genuine spiritual advantage suggests, and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is lawful for any Catholic for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick from a minister of an Eastern Church.[128]
    vatican.va/roman_curia/po…ectory_en.html
More details were given later in 1996 on canon 881 (see 64. Feast days):

Instruction for Applying the Liturgical Prescriptions of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches

byzcath.org/faith/documents/instruction.htm
 
Vico said:
Law
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Hi Vico,

I am aware of the Canon regulations here. Regarding my personal situation, there is no Eastern Catholic church of any type for 150 miles. The Melkite Deacon with whom I spoke last week said that this is a known difficulty for Eastern Catholics spread out far away from their liturgical homes here in the States, so an offer to fulfill Sunday obligation at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy has been extended to them even if there are plenty of Latin rites in their vicinity.

He did state that it would be preferable to attend both especially if, as in my case, the local Greek Orthodox parish does not commute Melkites (he revealed to me that some G.O. parishes in fact do commune Melkites through economy here in the states), but if it were not possible to attend both a Latin and Eastern Orthodox rite, then attending an Eastern Rite Orthodox liturgy is allowable for obligation purposes if and only if regular travel to an E.C. parish was untenable, and if I made concerted effort to receive Communion from a Latin priest as often as schedules could dictate.

In short, since there are no Eastern Catholic parishes within a three hour drive, then on weekends in which I could not attend both an Orthodox liturgy AND a RCC mass, it would fulfill Sunday obligation to attend an Orthodox liturgy if I felt the need to participate in that tradition. Should an Eastern Catholic church open up here, though, then this dispensation would no longer be present.
 
PaulfromIowa said:
The practical differences between the Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox are quite small. However, for your family’s sake, I would very much hesitate to join a church not in communion with your wife and children.
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I brought this up to the Orthodox priest with whom I am learning the ways of Orthodoxy. He pointed out that it is indeed important, but that since there is no bona fide guarantee of grace in Roman Catholic sacraments from an Orthodox point of view, then it would be better to adhere to Christ’s call to hold Him above even family as per Luke 14, and instead look forward to the hope of bringing my RCC wife and immediate family into Orthodoxy. Certainly this is a point worth considering, since with the Lord there is no compromise.

The problem with this, of course, is that I am not confident that there is any evidence the RCC have lost grace in their sacraments, even of Orthodoxy is true. 👍
 
pdstor said:
Hi Vico,

I am aware of the Canon regulations here. Regarding my personal situation, there is no Eastern Catholic church of any type for 150 miles. The Melkite Deacon with whom I spoke last week said that this is a known difficulty for Eastern Catholics spread out far away from their liturgical homes here in the States, so an offer to fulfill Sunday obligation at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy has been extended to them even if there are plenty of Latin rites in their vicinity.

He did state that it would be preferable to attend both especially if, as in my case, the local Greek Orthodox parish does not commute Melkites (he revealed to me that some G.O. parishes in fact do commune Melkites through economy here in the states), but if it were not possible to attend both a Latin and Eastern Orthodox rite, then attending an Eastern Rite Orthodox liturgy is allowable for obligation purposes if and only if regular travel to an E.C. parish was untenable, and if I made concerted effort to receive Communion from a Latin priest as often as schedules could dictate.

In short, since there are no Eastern Catholic parishes within a three hour drive, then on weekends in which I could not attend both an Orthodox liturgy AND a RCC mass, it would fulfill Sunday obligation to attend an Orthodox liturgy if I felt the need to participate in that tradition. Should an Eastern Catholic church open up here, though, then this dispensation would no longer be present.
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Earlier I read “preferred” not “obliged” from which I thought your ascribed ritual Church was the Latin Catholic Church, so the CIC would apply.

You are saying that you are subject to the CCEO canon law which applies only to eastern Catholics, because you are an eastern Catholic by ascription (baptism or grant of the Holy See) and so are using a dispensation intended for them?
 
po18guy said:
The various “separate but equal” Orthodox Churches, for all of the tremendous good, truth and beauty that is in them; for all of their apostolic history, and rich spirituality, lack:
  1. The successor to Peter.
  2. Unity with each other.
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Do you believe that perfect harmony and unity exists in the Catholic Communion?
To the OP: open your mind, heart and soul, and let the Holy Spirit speak to you some more. It is clear the Holy Spirit is calling you back to the Church. We pray the Holy Spirit brings you to a Church which speaks to you now and unto the ages of ages.

You have already received very sound advice. Experience the churches in your area, and keep praying. You will find your spiritual home before you know it!
 
Vico said:
Earlier I read “preferred” not “obliged” from which I thought your ascribed ritual Church was the Latin Catholic Church, so the CIC would apply.

You are saying that you are subject to the CCEO canon law which applies only to eastern Catholics, because you are an eastern Catholic by ascription (baptism or grant of the Holy See) and so are using a dispensation intended for them?
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I am neither a Catholic nor an Orthodox, nor was I either by birth, so this would not apply to me at all right now per se. 😉

I was speaking in reference to the possibility that I would come into Rome as a Melkite, since if I adhered to the Papacy, the Eastern liturgy and theology would be the most honest position for me to take, rather than the Roman one. Unfortunately, an Eastern Catholic church is not present in my hometown, but this would not detract from the enormous spiritual benefit gained in Eastern liturgy like the one served by the local Orthodox parish, and the fact that Eastern theology and practice align to my beliefs more than Latin theology (I consider the Papacy to be a question to be assessed independently).
 
BusterMartin said:
  1. Even though a Catholic, you could still venerate all of the Orthodox saints without any issue. It is my understanding, though, that it is frowned upon for the Orthodox to venerate Catholic saints (and other Catholic devotions such as the Divine Mercy Chaplet) in most cases, unless one’s spiritual director says otherwise.
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The Orthodox priest with whom I am currently learning said that should I become Orthodox, weekly alternation between my wife’s RCC and my own home at the Greek Orthodox Church would not be a problem, nor would my (current!) practice of praying at an adoration chapel - although he did express confusion over this, since the Body of Christ would simply be available to me at the Orthodox church at each Sunday liturgy.
 
pdstor said:
I am neither a Catholic nor an Orthodox, nor was I either by birth, so this would not apply to me at all right now per se. 😉

I was speaking in reference to the possibility that I would come into Rome as a Melkite, since if I adhered to the Papacy, the Eastern liturgy and theology would be the most honest position for me to take, rather than the Roman one. Unfortunately, an Eastern Catholic church is not present in my hometown, but this would not detract from the enormous spiritual benefit gained in Eastern liturgy like the one served by the local Orthodox parish, and the fact that Eastern theology and practice align to my beliefs more than Latin theology (I consider the Papacy to be a question to be assessed independently).
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Sorry, I forgot you were baptised Baptist. If you did convert to the Catholic faith you would be ascribed to the Latin Church. (Transfer is a possibility with bishop approval - Latin and Melkite.) All the Catholic ritual churches accept the same dogmas but with a different theological expression, and there is different liturgical norms, and slightly different sacramental discipline.

There are links here on the Melkite page to the topics of The Pope’s Role and The Melkite relationship with the Pope at The Bishop Answers (Eparchy of Newton):

mliles.com/melkite/pope.shtml
 
Since you will be ascribed to the Latin Church and come under the Latin Code of Canon Law and discipline, I can tell you that if you cannot physically or morally attend Mass in any Catholic Rite where you are located, then you would have no obligation. According to the Latin Church, the obligation cannot be fulfilled in any non-Catholic Rite. However, in your location you would have plenty of Roman Rite parishes nearby, so you would be expected to fulfill your obligation there. You can certainly also attend an Orthodox service on Sundays in addition to your obligation, but you should understand that it cannot replace your obligation as long as you are ascribed to the Latin Church.

Once received into the Catholic Church, you could theoretically apply for a canonical transfer to the Eastern Catholic Church of your choosing. However, I say theoretically because if you are not near any ECCs, then it will not be possible for you to be a regularly attending member of an ECC, and this is the most basic requirement for a canonical transfer. You should be worshipping and practicing as far as possible as an EC for at least a year before you request a canonical transfer. Worshipping in an Orthodox parish will not suffice. The point is to have “face time” and be known to your EC priest and bishop beforehand.

So, the answer for you might be that you need to move in order to follow your heart. This isn’t the worst thing that could happen. Move into an area where there are plenty of Eastern Catholic parishes to choose from; I was happy with a Ruthenian parish that was somewhat of a long commute for me; the Ukrainian Greek Catholics are somewhat more numerous; it all depends on the area you choose.

I will pray for you in your journey. God bless you.
 
You need to figure this out with prayer and the work you need to do to help you discern. One liners like “they don’t have the Pope” doesn’t contribute anything to what you need to do. The Pope doesn’t get you to heaven, Jesus gets you to heaven. Go where you find Him. Go where He leads you to.
 
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