Should we ask them to use separate bedrooms?

[BlueEyedLady]

I don’t think “who’s paying” is the important thing here. You seem to be arguing from the position that the choice to do good and the choice to do evil should both be equally respected as merely arbitrary choices. Fornication is evil and can never be respected. We respect that they are adults and primarily responsible for their own salvation (although we are all to a greater or lesser extent responsile for each others’ salvation) and we wouldn’t dream of going round to their house and ordering them to stop fornicating. So to that extent we tolerate their evil action. But what can not and should be tolerated is to deliberately flaunt their actions under our noses, regardless of who is paying.

That’s the way I see it anyway and the way I believe the Chruch seees it, after receiving the very helpful advice from all here and from my parish priest.

I don’t know how you plan on enforcing your values onto other people when you go in on something as equals. If you are hosting them as guests, that’s one thing. But saying “This is an expensive guest house, lets all split the cost and go in on it together” means that they have just as much claim on it as you do. That’s why I really, really think that different arrangements should be made if you just can’t handle knowing that they are sharing a bed under the same roof as you. Its kind of like my earlier example of if the whole family decided to stay at the same hotel but pay for their own rooms. You wouldn’t feel that you were in a position of telling them where to sleep then, would you?

Is this going to continue if they get married and have children (or don’t get married but have children)? Are you going to try to insist that they take their kids to mass when you all travel together?

I think that a long conversation with your son and his girlfriend is in order because this bedroom thing is only a symptom of a larger problem, and this problem will crop up many times throughout your lives. He obviously has different beliefs and values than you do, and if you are going to be a strong part of each others lives you will have to communicate what exactly it is you want from each other and negotiate what you can and cannot tolerate. He needs to know where your lines are and you need to know his, and once you’ve all had time to consider them you need to speak again and figure out how your relationship with him will play out and what boundaries will need to be put in place to facilitate that. Then everyone needs to agree to them and respect them.

Everyone has someone in their life that they don’t see eye to eye with but love dearly anyway. So for the sake of keeping the peace certain things aren’t discussed with that person, or you don’t engage in certain activities with them (like watching the evening news if that always turns into a debate), or you decide to only see them casually and in large groups, not one on one over dinner.

 

[Petergee]

Thanks for your advice BlueEyedLady.

I believe the situation is that they both understand very well what the rules are, but she is trying to bully us into changing them. This matter was not an issue with his previous GF (though she too had emotional/psychological “issues”).

Two days after we had the talk with our son, we received a message from her saying that they would make their own accomodation arrangements this time, and that if a similar situation arises with them staying with us they “WILL” be having their own room together

The fact that she is an atheist is not the issue I think. (Our son describes himself as some amorphous type of Christian.) Our niece’s boyfriend is an atheist and this has never an issue when they were staying with us (or her parents).

As I said I don’t think “who pays” is the issue but perhaps “who arranges the accommodation” may be relevant. e.g. if our son and his GF arranged to rent a house and asked us to stay with them and pay a share of the rent, and made it clear that they would be sharing a room, we would decline.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

Two days after we had the talk with our son, we received a message from her saying that they would make their own accomodation arrangements this time, and that if a similar situation arises with them staying with us they “WILL” be having their own room together

Good. So there is absolutely no question where they stand. Now you are fully informed, and don’t need to wonder if shared housing will ever work in the future. This may not need to be said right now. But an appropriate reply might be to tell her first that that you are very grateful for her honesty (actually, I think that part does need to be said now), and that given the strong feelings on both sides, it will be wise not to share accommodations in the future, so you can avoid this conflict. (Oh and then say something nice like you’re looking forward to seeing them on the trip.)

 

[Petergee]

Good. So there is absolutely no question where they stand. Now you are fully informed, and don’t need to wonder if shared housing will ever work in the future. This may not need to be said right now. But an appropriate reply might be to tell her first that that you are very grateful for her honesty (actually, I think that part does need to be said now), and that given the strong feelings on both sides, it will be wise not to share accommodations in the future, so you can avoid this conflict. (Oh and then say something nice like you’re looking forward to seeing them on the trip.)

We were already fully informed that that is her view. The purpose of the message was to tell us that she has zero respect for our religion, morality, family and her elders and reserves the right to flaunt her fornication with our son under our noses at any time in future although she has decided not to do so at this time for reasons that have nothing to do with our objection to it. She was telling us that our pleas and reminders to our son of something that he in fact has always known, that we do not live with unmarried couples sharing a room, mean nothing to her.

We will continue to make offers of hospitality to them as we do to all family members, when similar situations arise in future. That is our duty in charity towards our children and relatives and their friends. Whether they accept it is up to them, but they know perfectly clearly (though they should have known already) what the ground rules are for sharing a house with us.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

We were already fully informed that that is her view. The purpose of the message was to tell us that she has zero respect for our religion, morality, family and her elders and reserves the right to flaunt her fornication with our son under our noses at any time in future although she has decided not to do so at this time for reasons that have nothing to do with our objection to it. She was telling us that our pleas and reminders to our son of something that he in fact has always known, that we do not live with unmarried couples sharing a room, mean nothing to her.

Oh I know. But then you knew that already too. Of course, it was a very snotty reply, and she sure seems like a piece of work. What I would really want to do is have no association with her at all. But in the interest of maintaining a relationship with your son, I would still answer the same way I suggested. Don’t worry about emotions and immature words - just stick with the facts. Keep in mind you have achieved two things here: One, you have avoided the problem of having them share a room under your roof THIS time. And two, you have her own words to you, in writing, that will be perfect evidence for why you wouldn’t invite them to lodge with you in the future.

We will continue to make offers of hospitality to them as we do to all family members, when similar situations arise in future. That is our duty in charity towards our children and relatives and their friends. Whether they accept it is up to them, but they know perfectly clearly (though they should have known already) what the ground rules are for sharing a house with us.

Actually, to me, it seems like you would just be stirring the pot. Both times you have invited them, there has been a somewhat drawn out process of conflict over the values/room situation that has resulted in more bad feeling and more opportunities for her to flaunt her lack of respect towards you. Knowing exactly what triggers the heightened conflict, why trigger it? Perhaps having a new standard of “out of respect for each other, we won’t lodge together, and that topic will be something we don’t have to argue over anymore” will free you all up to have some level of pleasant interaction with them, or at least with your son. Make it a non-issue, instead of something for her to fume about time after time. In my opinion, that would be a very charitable way of interacting because it shows that you are accepting their decisions and moving forward. It’s not bad to know the door is always open, but you don’t have to repeatedly poke the bear.

 

[Petergee]

Actually, to me, it seems like you would just be stirring the pot. Both times you have invited them, there has been a somewhat drawn out process of conflict over the values/room situation that has resulted in more bad feeling and more opportunities for her to flaunt her lack of respect towards you.

Actually from our point of view it wasn’t a drawn out period last time. As I said, the last time, we mentioned the sleeping arrangements months beforehand and there was never any suggestion that this would be a problem until the moment when she was actually walking into the room with a female relative (a very easygoing lady whom she has never had any known problem with) that she suddenly insisted she must share a room with our son. We then after a few minutes argument acceded to her wish on the condition that they pay for the extra room (and even though this meant that we and several others who had already settled into their rooms had to change rooms) and we stressed that this was a one-off compromise which would not be repeated.

Knowing exactly what triggers the heightened conflict, why trigger it?

I suspect that if it wasn’t this that triggers her “I will get my way no matter what anybody else thinks andf feels and at whatever inconvvenience to them, and I must be the centre of attention because my needs are more important than anyone else” she would have found something else.

Perhaps having a new standard of “out of respect for each other, we won’t lodge together, and that topic will be something we don’t have to argue over anymore” will free you all up to have some level of pleasant interaction with them, or at least with your son. Make it a non-issue, instead of something for her to fume about time after time. In my opinion, that would be a very charitable way of interacting because it shows that you are accepting their decisions and moving forward. It’s not bad to know the door is always open, but you don’t have to repeatedly poke the bear.

We respect our son, and we respect her as a person, but we can never respect or accept anyone’s decision to live in sin. As I said we can tolerate the situation existing, but we won’t let it change the equal hospitality which we offer to all of our children. What we will do next time, as well as issuing a general invitation, is to explicitly say (in writing) to our son and his GF "obviously the usual rules of sleeping arrangements apply, that unmarried couples will not be sharing the same room " so they can’t claim there is any doubt about it. I think the bear is likely to be less cranky if these things are spoken about explicitly rather than just being implied.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

We respect our son, and we respect her as a person, but we can never respect or accept anyone’s decision to live in sin.

What I meant was accept the fact that they are making their own decisions. In my experience, continuing to put out the same invitation, is often taken as a sign that your head is in the sand and that you don’t “get it” that they are living differently. This makes them want to flaunt it even more, because they want to you “get it.” I know that you get it, but from the standpoint of the person who just told you she will never sleep separately from your ds, your continuing offer of lodging “as long as you sleep separately”, is a sign that you ignored what she said and are just pretending that she doesn’t mean what she says.

If the tables were turned, I would want the same respect. I have had situations where people have made offers to me of things that are objectionable. An example would be a relative offering a sleep over for my kids. After it has been offered a couple of times, and we’ve explained a couple of times that our kids don’t do sleepovers, I would get really annoyed if they kept repeatedly offering the sleepovers. I’d feel like they didn’t respect me enough to let it go, and that they didn’t recognize my authority to make decisions that are different from theirs. It would really tick me off that I had to constantly defend and explain my choice, when it is my decision, and they should just stop asking. If that same relative stopped inviting my kids, but continued to invite their cousins, I wouldn’t be offended, I would be appreciative that they took me at my word.

I know, no matter what you do, the girlfriend will be offended. It’s a lose lose as long as there is anything to have conflict over. I appreciate your commitment to being generous with your children. I wish you the best.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Thanks for your advice BlueEyedLady.

I believe the situation is that they both understand very well what the rules are, but she is trying to bully us into changing them. This matter was not an issue with his previous GF (though she too had emotional/psychological “issues”). How long have they been together? Don’t blame it all on mental illness though, some people just lack manners. I suffer from depression and at times a debilitating anxiety disorder. Despite time in a mental hospital and more meds than I care to think of I have never talked to an SO’s parents like that.

Two days after we had the talk with our son, we received a message from her saying that they would make their own accomodation arrangements this time, and that if a similar situation arises with them staying with us they “WILL” be having their own room togetherWhat a nut. I mean, who does that? I fully understand her unwillingness to sleep in seperate rooms, but there is a right way and a wrong way to go about it, and sending texts to your SO’s parents in some sort of attempt to “lay down the law” is the wrong way.

The fact that she is an atheist is not the issue I think. (Our son describes himself as some amorphous type of Christian.) Our niece’s boyfriend is an atheist and this has never an issue when they were staying with us (or her parents). Yeah, I don’t think atheist is the issue here either. I’m an atheist, and I happily get a hotel room. FH and I are good friends with another couple who are both atheists, and they sleep apart when visiting her parents no problem.

As I said I don’t think “who pays” is the issue but perhaps “who arranges the accommodation” may be relevant. e.g. if our son and his GF arranged to rent a house and asked us to stay with them and pay a share of the rent, and made it clear that they would be sharing a room, we would decline. We’ll agree to disagree on that one. But I think that we can agree that right now the question of who sleeps where is the least of your problems with this woman.

I don’t know if you ever mentioned this girls age, but is she younger than he is? She seems a little immature. I understand some of her points, of course, because I feel the same way. But the way she is handling her feelings and communicating with her live-in boyfriend’s family is completely inappropriate. I’ve always believed in the standard system of the couple talks privately, gets on the same page, comes to an agreement, and then the person who’s family it is is responsible for communicating the decision to them. Even if her and your son came to that decision (and it doesn’t sound like they talked about it, more like she came up with it and passed it on) then he needed to discuss it with you.

I honestly wonder if jealousy is coming in to play here at all. And I’m really not bashing her on this one because its human nature and part of having a relationship get serious is the process of moving up to the number one spot in your SO’s life, and when you feel like that’s being denied to you you get defensive. Honestly at this point if someone tried to get FH and I to sleep separately and he was for it I would of course be miffed for a number of reasons but I think that the one that would be in the back of my head that I would never admit to would be the thought of why when he knows how I feel, and when we have a home together, is he putting my feelings on the back burner for someone else’s? There would be a tinge of jealousy and defensiveness. Granted, I wouldn’t send rude texts to his parents, I would have an adult conversation with him.

Honestly, and maybe I’m just a bit too passive-aggressive, but when she sent me that message I probably would have called my son and asked for a time to speak to both of them (of course I would sound cheery). When I finally got them in the same room I would just calmly explain that there seems to be an issue with the communication between the three of you, which is normal and you understand because they’re so young and inexperienced. (dig) So what you think should happen is that they need to talk and figure out between them what they will and will not tolerate and what it is they want, and when their wants conflict with your wants what will happen then. After they come to their agreements they can tell you about them and you can discuss it like adults, because “Obviously I can’t get one-sided text messages from one of you telling me how things are going to be, that’s not how adults talk to each other and how familial relationships are respected”. At that point she’ll probably feel like a child AND if your son didn’t know about that text, he does now! But the whole time I would sound very happy, upbeat, and try to come of as a very patient person who just wanted to help everyone get on track to be happy and get along.

 

[gh4]

You know, it seems pretty simple to me. There is a lack of respect for the parents.
If the kids want to sleep together in the same room, they need to secure their own place to stay.
Doesn’t matter if they are 50 and go visit his 75 year old parents, if the kids aren’t married and want to say with his parents, they need to sleep in different bedrooms. Period. It’s a matter of respect of parents and elders. Seems simple to me.
If they don’t want to be in different bedrooms, they need to stay in a hotel or motel while they visit.
That just doesn’t seem very difficult or complicated or anything else to me.

And I believe that the parents should stick to their guns and not allow the girlfriend to bully them into letting them share a bedroom while they are unmarried. Period.

 

[maryjk]

You know, it seems pretty simple to me. There is a lack of respect for the parents.
If the kids want to sleep together in the same room, they need to secure their own place to stay.
Doesn’t matter if they are 50 and go visit his 75 year old parents, if the kids aren’t married and want to say with his parents, they need to sleep in different bedrooms. Period. It’s a matter of respect of parents and elders. Seems simple to me.
If they don’t want to be in different bedrooms, they need to stay in a hotel or motel while they visit.
That just doesn’t seem very difficult or complicated or anything else to me.

And I believe that the parents should stick to their guns and not allow the girlfriend to bully them into letting them share a bedroom while they are unmarried. Period.

I really couldn’t imagine it going on for more than one visit.

Okay, they played you for the fool once. Now you know better.

And I do agree with BEL, there are bigger problems with this girl that just this one issue.

 

[Petergee]

I suppose you’re right, TKC and BEL.

I guess it would be best to say something like, "OK, as long as you are determined that that is your attitude, it won’t be possible for us to share a house with you, so please don’t be offended if we ask your siblings and their husband/wife/GF/BF to stay with us on future occasions but not you. And you know of course that the invitation remains open when and if you change your mind. "

No I don’t know yet if our son is actually aware of the content and tone of the message his GF sent. And yes it would be great to get the two of them together with us for a calm, intelligent, respectful adult discussion. (She is in her late 20s she is actuallyy older than him.) But that is easier said than done where she is concerned. She and our son have now declined an invitation to another family member’s birthday dinner party on the weekend because we would be there.

 

[EasterJoy]

We were already fully informed that that is her view. The purpose of the message was to tell us that she has zero respect for our religion, morality, family and her elders and reserves the right to flaunt her fornication with our son under our noses at any time in future although she has decided not to do so at this time for reasons that have nothing to do with our objection to it. She was telling us that our pleas and reminders to our son of something that he in fact has always known, that we do not live with unmarried couples sharing a room, mean nothing to her.

We will continue to make offers of hospitality to them as we do to all family members, when similar situations arise in future. That is our duty in charity towards our children and relatives and their friends. Whether they accept it is up to them, but they know perfectly clearly (though they should have known already) what the ground rules are for sharing a house with us.

There will always be people who think that their freedom to make their own decisions means that they are entitled to have everyone either approve of them in all ways all of the time or else be on their “out” list.

I would not even discuss this point with her or your son on moral terms. That would apply if you were refusing to dine with her because she is living with your son outside of marriage. As it is, the condition you’re talking about falls on a far lower common denominator. Honestly, if you were visiting someone in a country where the men had to all wear kilts, you’d either plan to wear the kilt or you’d decline the invitation. This is what polite guests do: they either agree to the terms of an invitation or else they politely send their regrets. They do not kick a fit because their hosts, having invited them into the intimacy of their home, expect that of course they will want to live according to the prevailing rules in his house.

Now, if you had allowed one brother to share a room with his live-in girlfriend and not the other, then that would be another thing, but since you are only living the same culture on vacation that you live all of the time and applying the same rules to everyone in the house, I don’t see how even an atheist can quarrel with it.

She’s being rude. A gracious host passes over the rudeness and says, “I’m sorry you feel that way, but yes, if that is what you insist on, then you will have to find your own accommodations.” If she expresses anger, you can say, “It’s unfortunate that this angers you, but the conditions are not negotiable, and will not be negotiable in the future. We can’t offer hospitality that violates our consciences.”

You could add that it saddens you that any guest of yours would ask you to, but I wouldn’t go there. I think it would be tossing pearls before swine.

 

[SouthCatholic]

We were already fully informed that that is her view. The purpose of the message was to tell us that she has zero respect for our religion, morality, family and her elders and reserves the right to flaunt her fornication with our son under our noses at any time in future although she has decided not to do so at this time for reasons that have nothing to do with our objection to it. She was telling us that our pleas and reminders to our son of something that he in fact has always known, that we do not live with unmarried couples sharing a room, mean nothing to her.

We will continue to make offers of hospitality to them as we do to all family members, when similar situations arise in future. That is our duty in charity towards our children and relatives and their friends. Whether they accept it is up to them, but they know perfectly clearly (though they should have known already) what the ground rules are for sharing a house with us.

Not HER, THEY/THEIR Unless she’s fornicating with the invisible man or forcing your son to participate at gunpoint, this is THEIR sin and your son is a willing participant. Therefore, you are misguided in laying this all at her feet.

 

[Kindness]

Agreed SouthCatholic. It seems like their sin is becoming her sin. The son is acting like a wimp in my opinion and letting his GF get the blame for everything so he can remain the “good and generous son” in his parents eyes. He should either go without the GF or pay for independent accommodations for them both. It’s so easy to demonize the GF who is outside the family circle. I don’t condone their behavior, I just really don’t buy the idea that it’s all her and he’s the dutiful golden boy lead astray. Seems delusional.

 

[Petergee]

Not HER, THEY/THEIR Unless she’s fornicating with the invisible man or forcing your son to participate at gunpoint, this is THEIR sin and your son is a willing participant. Therefore, you are misguided in laying this all at her feet.

I’m sorry if I inadvertently gave that impression as I have stated the fornication is a grave sin by both of them and by each of them. All I said differentially regarding her is that it seems that she is the driving force behind the determination to flaunt it under our noses as rudely as possible.

 

[geneseesquire]

My wife and I are renting a holiday house for a week and have invited other members of the family to join us. Our adult son is living with his girlfriend and they have accepted the offer. Should we tell them they have to sleep in separate rooms, just as we would if they were spending the night at our own house? We are afraid that if we do this, his girlfriend will say that we are not making her welcome, and so turn our son against us.

Or should we say that they are sub-letting a room of the house from us, and what they do in it is up to them?

I believe it is important to stand your ground. You are inviting them. You set the rules. While the house is not yours, per se, you are paying for the use of it.

I hope that you have discussed and explained your beliefs to both your son and his girlfriend so this should not be shocking news to them.

 

[kgra]

As others have said, I don’t see how asking them to sleep in seperate rooms is being disrespectful. My husband,son and I traveled to my sister-in-laws with my mother-in-law this summer. When it came time to make sleeping arrangements, my sister-in-law asked me to sleep in the room with my mother-in-law (twin beds) and my husband and son could sleep in another room. Even married couples sleep apart when situations come up or spare beds are limited.

 

[His_helpmeet]

I quite agree. My husband has a daughter from his first marriage (the marriage was declared null and we are sacramentally married; I essentially consider my stepdaughter my own child in all but legality and biology) and we’re trying to have biological children of our own. We know that she will likely be at least 9 years older than her younger siblings. We’re trying to raise her in the faith, but we do recognize that it is possible that she may decide to move in with a boyfriend later on. However, we are planning to make it clear to her that this house is “G-rated”, especially because of the example she will be setting for her younger siblings. If you’re not married, you DON’T get to share a bed in a Catholic home. End of discussion.

Looking at deeper issues, same as the others I would be SERIOUSLY concerned with this woman’s emotional maturity. If she has a panic attack from sleeping alone, she needs some psychological help. It is entirely possible that situations may come up that require her to sleep alone - for example, recently all three of us stayed at my aunt and uncle’s. Our daughter was upset at having to sleep alone in a strange house, so I shared a bed with her and my husband slept by himself. I’ve been in situations where I ended up sleeping with my mom. What would she do if he had to be in the hospital for some reason and she couldn’t spend the night? What would she do if one of them was travelling and ended up stranded somewhere? What would she do if they ended up having to sleep someplace where there simply wasn’t room for them to sleep together?

 

[VirtusTransitus]

If they are paying for their portion or will be responsible for paying you back for it then it really doesn’t make sense to expect them to change their relationship to suit your sensibilities.

If they weren’t being held responsible for their portion it would be different.

Sensibilities? Or standards of conduct? I think sensibilities is a bit dismissive.

If it were the OP’s house, this is a closed issue, I think we all agree. Parents call the shots and let the chips fall where they may. But since it’s “neutral territory” and ostensibly shared expenses, the game is a bit different, I think.

Personally I would respectfully state my comfort level as the patriarch (or matriarch) of the family, hope that they respect my wishes, and count on their love and dedication to the family to get them through the small inconvenience of sleeping apart. If they pushed back on the issue, then we have a decision to make and we end up in a little classic game of family “chicken”…

GOOD LUCK!!!