Silly question #10000000000: Sight without eyes?

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Ok. In advance, forgive the ridiculous nature of this question, but one of the crosses I bear is a tendency to nitpick on little theological/philosophical issues, and one of my latest burning questions is this: during NDEs and OBEs, the subjects claim to see things while separated from their body; so, my question is, if our spirits are capable of seeing on their own, why do we have eyes? And shouldn’t blind people be able to see anyway?

To refine the question, why is our “spiritual sight” blocked during life?

Like I said–ridiculous question, but it’s been stuck in my head for awhile now and I had to put it out there. :o
 
Ok. In advance, forgive the ridiculous nature of this question, but one of the crosses I bear is a tendency to nitpick on little theological/philosophical issues, and one of my latest burning questions is this: during NDEs and OBEs, the subjects claim to see things while separated from their body; so, my question is, if our spirits are capable of seeing on their own, why do we have eyes? And shouldn’t blind people be able to see anyway?

To refine the question, why is our “spiritual sight” blocked during life?

Like I said–ridiculous question, but it’s been stuck in my head for awhile now and I had to put it out there. :o
The spirit/soul/mind (take your pick) is what actually does the seeing; consider that you can “see” while dreaming, although your eyes are closed and in darkness.

However, a visual mechanism is needed to see through. This mechanism is part of the body (eyes/optic nerve/visual head). That is how blindness and hoods, etc, work: the visual mechanism is kept from functioning. The mind cannot see on it’s own.

If NDE and OBE are for real (big if) then seeing is done using the sight of what S. Paul called the “spiritual body” (pneumatikon soma). We do not have access to these new faculties while naturally alive.

God Bless, ICXC NIKA!
 
The spirit/soul/mind (take your pick) is what actually does the seeing; consider that you can “see” while dreaming, although your eyes are closed and in darkness.

However, a visual mechanism is needed to see through. This mechanism is part of the body (eyes/optic nerve/visual head). That is how blindness and hoods, etc, work: the visual mechanism is kept from functioning. The mind cannot see on it’s own.

If NDE and OBE are for real (big if) then seeing is done using the sight of what S. Paul called the “spiritual body” (pneumatikon soma). We do not have access to these new faculties while naturally alive.

God Bless, ICXC NIKA!
Good points, GEddie. The dream aspect is one i’ve often thought of. Any dream I’ve had far outweighs the visual capacity of my waking imagination, and then I’ve had some dreams which took place in the very room where I was sleeping, and the “rendering” of the room was perfect in every detail. But that begs the question, if the faculties of the spiritual body are not accessible while we are alive, what exactly is being “seen through” in the world of dreams? 😉

As for whether or not they’re real, I’ve never had a NDE but I have had a couple OBEs: a minor one while I was awake and a rather startling one while I was asleep (this was one of those dreams I mentioned.) I “woke up” and got up from the couch I had fallen asleep on and then turned around to see my body still lying on the couch. This startled me and I “woke up” again to find myself lying in the same position in which I had seen myself in the “dream.” It was a bizarre experience. Especially considering that the “dream” lacked the fuzzy, amorphous scenery that is typical of my dreams. I’ve only had two “dreams” like this, where the dream took place in the room where I was sleeping and the room looked, detail for detail, square inch for square inch, as it did when I was awake. One was this OBE and the other involved an apparition of a deceased loved one, which was followed by a rather inexplicable and chilling occurence when I woke up… but that’s a story for another time!
 
Good points, GEddie. The dream aspect is one i’ve often thought of. Any dream I’ve had far outweighs the visual capacity of my waking imagination, and then I’ve had some dreams which took place in the very room where I was sleeping, and the “rendering” of the room was perfect in every detail. But that begs the question, if the faculties of the spiritual body are not accessible while we are alive, what exactly is being “seen through” in the world of dreams? 😉
I’d say that dreamsight uses the visual memories in our heads.

Most of what we dreamsee, after all, does not really exist, except in our mind.

Sight is “resource intensive”. One source estimates that 1/3 of our bra(name removed by moderator)ower is required to maintain it!

The reason dreamsight is so much more vivid than daydreams is that while dreaming, you are not in fact using your eyes, while during daydreaming you are. There’s not enough bra(name removed by moderator)ower to do both. Try daydreaming with your eyes closed, or blindfolded, and the daydreams will appear more intense.

God Bless, ICXC NIKA!
 
I’d say that dreamsight uses the visual memories in our heads.

Most of what we dreamsee, after all, does not really exist, except in our mind.

Sight is “resource intensive”. One source estimates that 1/3 of our bra(name removed by moderator)ower is required to maintain it!

The reason dreamsight is so much more vivid than daydreams is that while dreaming, you are not in fact using your eyes, while during daydreaming you are. There’s not enough bra(name removed by moderator)ower to do both. Try daydreaming with your eyes closed, or blindfolded, and the daydreams will appear more intense.

God Bless, ICXC NIKA!
Good points, again. You’re a fountain of wisdom, GEddie. 😉

However, I added some stuff to my previous post. Any thoughts on those experiences of mine?
 
Good points, again. You’re a fountain of wisdom, GEddie. 😉

However, I added some stuff to my previous post. Any thoughts on those experiences of mine?
Thanx:)

Impressive experiences indeed!

It could very well be OBE, especially if you see your body from “outside”.

However, it could still be a dream given that post 1977, we all have NDE/OBE on the brain. I.e., we could be dreaming that we see our bodies from outside!

If I were to experience such again, I’d try to carefully examine my body, to ascertain whether or not I was dreaming.

NDE/OBE have been studied for generations, with no proof that any knowledge or information was gained from outside the body.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA
 
from what i’ve seen, i don’t believe in OBE or NDE.
i think spiritual sight will be more like an awareness of things rather than eyesight.
something we probably can’t imagine right now, like Heaven.
 
Ok. In advance, forgive the ridiculous nature of this question, but one of the crosses I bear is a tendency to nitpick on little theological/philosophical issues, and one of my latest burning questions is this: during NDEs and OBEs, the subjects claim to see things while separated from their body; so, my question is, if our spirits are capable of seeing on their own, why do we have eyes? And shouldn’t blind people be able to see anyway?

To refine the question, why is our “spiritual sight” blocked during life?

Like I said–ridiculous question, but it’s been stuck in my head for awhile now and I had to put it out there. :o
I’ve written many times on this forum that the night my own father died he appeared in my room. He started with an apology, we argued and conversed, and at the end he gave this terrifying scream, and then disappeared.

Now we were talking, arguing, could see and hear each other, and it was discernably him, going by his features, tone of voice etc. He even reverted to type once, and lost his temper, which was something he could do at the drop of a hat. It was also pretty clear he could see his life in rapid retrospect, and even made a few predictions, one of which I’ve related on this forum, about the fact I’d become a Christian, and when I did I’d meet a certain pastor.

But his dead body was several miles away, so he had no eyes to see with; no brain to think with; no ears to hear with; no tongue, larynx, soft palate or lungs to talk with.

Yet here we were communicating somehow. What the means for the spiritual / physical interface was I don’t know, but for all intents and purposes he could have been standing in my bedroom in the flesh. In one way we should be the least surprised about interfaces these days - we routinely use interfaces - TV signals become a picture and sound; a GPS satellite signal gives directions on a small screen; we punch a keyboard to create letters on a screen while in the background tiny electric currents provide the logic and means.

So based on that personal experience, it’s obvious to me we have a dual existence - mind and soul. In the end it’s all up to God - He’s the one who gave us this life, and He’s the one who guarantees the next. Without His guarantee, there is nothing. Angels don’t have these organs either, but they communicate to humans from time to time.

When Gabriel spoke to Mary, this was just as much an example of a spiritual / physical interface as my father’s spirit appearing in my room.

The one thing that would be of some concern to me - what about those who might have committed some sort of mortal sin when they still had the ability to act responsibly, but then had brain damage or developed Alzheimer’s or a similar illness so they can’t remember. As the old pastor said, you can’t repent of something you can’t remember. At death, I think they have their faculties restored, only to be faced with answering for something they’ve done that that they couldn’t even remember doing.
 
I’ve written many times on this forum that the night my own father died he appeared in my room. He started with an apology, we argued and conversed, and at the end he gave this terrifying scream, and then disappeared.

Now we were talking, arguing, could see and hear each other, and it was discernably him, going by his features, tone of voice etc. He even reverted to type once, and lost his temper, which was something he could do at the drop of a hat. It was also pretty clear he could see his life in rapid retrospect, and even made a few predictions, one of which I’ve related on this forum, about the fact I’d become a Christian, and when I did I’d meet a certain pastor.

But his dead body was several miles away, so he had no eyes to see with; no brain to think with; no ears to hear with; no tongue, larynx, soft palate or lungs to talk with.

Yet here we were communicating somehow. What the means for the spiritual / physical interface was I don’t know, but for all intents and purposes he could have been standing in my bedroom in the flesh. In one way we should be the least surprised about interfaces these days - we routinely use interfaces - TV signals become a picture and sound; a GPS satellite signal gives directions on a small screen; we punch a keyboard to create letters on a screen while in the background tiny electric currents provide the logic and means.

So based on that personal experience, it’s obvious to me we have a dual existence - mind and soul. In the end it’s all up to God - He’s the one who gave us this life, and He’s the one who guarantees the next. Without His guarantee, there is nothing. Angels don’t have these organs either, but they communicate to humans from time to time.

When Gabriel spoke to Mary, this was just as much an example of a spiritual / physical interface as my father’s spirit appearing in my room.

The one thing that would be of some concern to me - what about those who might have committed some sort of mortal sin when they still had the ability to act responsibly, but then had brain damage or developed Alzheimer’s or a similar illness so they can’t remember. As the old pastor said, you can’t repent of something you can’t remember. At death, I think they have their faculties restored, only to be faced with answering for something they’ve done that that they couldn’t even remember doing.
One is not culpable for actions committed while out of their mind, or not in control of their actions. Even the civil law respects “diminsihed capacity” and does not execute the mentally handicapped (at least – in USA – not anymore). Certainly our LORD is more merciful than the civil state?

The fear would arise from sins committed while one did have a free mind and will, but were not repented. That’s the error of counting on “death bed repentance”: many will not go consciously into the night.

ICXC NIKA
 
The spirit/soul/mind (take your pick) is what actually does the seeing; consider that you can “see” while dreaming, although your eyes are closed and in darkness.

However, a visual mechanism is needed to see through. This mechanism is part of the body (eyes/optic nerve/visual head). That is how blindness and hoods, etc, work: the visual mechanism is kept from functioning. The mind cannot see on it’s own.

If NDE and OBE are for real (big if) then seeing is done using the sight of what S. Paul called the “spiritual body” (pneumatikon soma). We do not have access to these new faculties while naturally alive.

God Bless, ICXC NIKA!
I agree with you if we follow the habitual physics constraints; however, basic physics does not always apply and it is very difficult to understand when our capabilities transcend the laws of physics. Gemma DiGiorgio was born without pupils in her eyes but after the visit with Padre Pio she was able to see.
 
One is not culpable for actions committed while out of their mind, or not in control of their actions. Even the civil law respects “diminsihed capacity” and does not execute the mentally handicapped (at least – in USA – not anymore). Certainly our LORD is more merciful than the civil state?

The fear would arise from sins committed while one did have a free mind and will, but were not repented. That’s the error of counting on “death bed repentance”: many will not go consciously into the night.

ICXC NIKA
My question was in relation to the issue raised in your second paragraph “while one did have a free mind and will”. For example, a bloke driving dangerously and stupidly crashes into another car and kills someone, and is brain damaged himself in the process, so he can’t remember anything.

I used to drive a maxi-taxi part time, and I sometimes would pick up passengers from a centre for “Brain Acquired Injury”. Someone told me there were two girls in there who were vegetables because someone had slipped a “rape drug” into their drink. It can depress the respiratory system if they take an overdose.

Obviously the person who used the drug will be held accountable by God (and punished severely if I’m any judge), but suppose the girls themselves were leading promiscuous lives in night clubs (this is conjecture as I don’t know any more than what I’ve just written).

They would not even be able to begin to repent because they cannot remember their past.
 
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