Sin and suffering?

[ZenFred]

Peace and happiness to everyone here. You have helped me out a great deal with your thoughtful responses in the past and I hope you can do so again. I am grateful in advance.

So most world views, Christianity is not an exception, say there is something wrong with the state of things or man’s condition. For Christianity this “problem” is sin. Why is that?

I think we call agree that “problem” with the world is that human being experience suffering. I realize this is a bit of just restating the obvious and an A=A proposition. I think a Christian would say that sin is a problem because it causes human suffering. Right?

But not all suffering is caused by wrongful action and much suffering is due to natural causes such as illness or loss of loved one, or just the changes and chances of this life.

How is the fact that we violate a divine set of laws the fundamental issue and why we are not happy?

I do believe that as human beings we make mistakes and do great harm to each other and ourselves. But if we were morally perfect would we be free from suffering?

-Namaste, Fred

 

[GEddie]

Shalom, ZF:

First of all, there are two kinds of “sin.”

There is personal sin, the things we as human beings commit. These mostly affect our own life and our relationship to God, although they can affect others, as well (consider the family of an alcohol abuser, or someone in the path of his motor vehicle).

There is, however, also original sin. This was the sin committed by the first human beings, which introduced sin into the physical world. This brought corruptibility into our world. The effects of original sin are why there are birth defects, weather catastrophes, etc, and also why we die.

In time, however, the results of original sin will be redeemed.

ICXC NIKA

 

[ZenFred]

So in the garden of Eden there was no suffering? And there will be no suffering in heaven? Hmm

 

[friardchips]

Shalom, ZF:

First of all, there are two kinds of “sin.”

There is personal sin, the things we as human beings commit. These mostly affect our own life and our relationship to God, although they can affect others, as well (consider the family of an alcohol abuser, or someone in the path of his motor vehicle).

There is, however, also original sin. This was the sin committed by the first human beings, which introduced sin into the physical world. This brought corruptibility into our world. The effects of original sin are why there are birth defects, weather catastrophes, etc, and also why we die.

In time, however, the results of original sin will be redeemed.

ICXC NIKA

Good point about defects and weather catastrophes. It’s easy to forget that God did not create imperfection but rather it was through original sin that creation was stained as such.

 

[GEddie]

So in the garden of Eden there was no suffering? And there will be no suffering in heaven? Hmm

Gan Eden did not last very long; but in Heaven there will indeed be no suffering.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Michael19682]

Hi Zen Fred,

As i am learning, what you say is something wrong with things or man’s condition is not wholly true, as i see it now. In the world view you identify with, ignorance or grasping at the self is the problem? In Christianity, which is not so much a world view as a life lived “In Christ,” i might have a problem, it might even be sin, but Christians hold that we are bound for an end to this dilemma when we are enjoined by God to our Savior who is already in heaven. The link or connection is already there. We are taught that suffering is not wrong because it will teach u s many things, among those being the actual joy of doing good deeds as opponent to our sins.

I believe that sin causes suffering because it puts us in a condition of going against standards we have been taught and come to believe in from our experience. [This is why correct and understandable teachings about the wrongs of sin is increasingly important in a world where it has become virtuous to “not care what others think about me.”] All suffering is essentially an experience and not an abstraction, like, say, the characters in the Wizard of Oz are fantasy. If all someone’s suffering is because his life is not up to par with an abstract notion of what his life should be like, he should try dropping the abstraction and seeing how he feels when he forgets it.

 

[Michael19682]

So in the garden of Eden there was no suffering? And there will be no suffering in heaven? Hmm

oh yes. in heaven our bodies will be pure light. you might think about that more. no more cuts and bruises. without a body to defend, feed, and keep alive in the competitive world – where would suffering possibly arise?

 

[ZenFred]

Michael,
Thank you for your response and you have some thought provoking points.

1. I liked your clarification that Christianity is not just a world view, a collection of beliefs or perspectives. Rather it is an experience of living a life in Christ, as a justified son or daughter of God with a real relationship with the trinity. The same could be said for Zen that is not a worldview, in fact in a way it rejects world views and is a disciplined meditative practice seeking direct experience of Reality.
2. “Suffering is not wrong” There is a lot to unpack in this statement from a Buddhist perspective. I understand what you mean as a Christian saying it and its an issue that often comes in Buddhist-Christian discussions. On a basic level, I agree with you. For example, physical pain and discomfort need not be suffering if it is perceived as something desirable (in order to glorify God) or inconsequential (due to promise of heaven or faith in God’s deliverance). Or for a Buddhist, pain is not suffering if one can withhold judgment and simply see things as they are.
3. So yes “ignorance and grasping” are the problem in that we grasp on to our judgments and attachments and are ignorant of the reality of things as they are. Same is true in way with Christianity. We are unhappy because we become attached to earthly things and selfish goals and are ignorant of kingdom of God all around us and if we are believers, within us. I’ve been thinking a lot lately how internally inconsistent many Christians are who they really believed what they said they believed they would worry about worldly things much less and live much less stressful lives. Granted, I am not always able to live up to my own convictions either.

 

[Michael19682]

Fred, you are most welcome. Because you already have said there is much to think about for you, I will only add a few related nuances: that when we are “In Christ,” we are also in the Trinity, since Christ is the Second Person of the Trinity. Furthermore, staying in Christ means when we suffer we are not automatically separated from the Father, because though it was unknown previously for God to be able to suffer [bodily], the sufferings of Christ prove he was not averse to suffering and that his suffering was very serious and resulted in the imminent experience of death.
His last recorded words are rendered “It is finished.” As a Christian, I can’t say I had time to reflect on his words when I was close to death. But I think he meant “the work” he had come to do; his purpose for being in the world. Knowing what I know about Buddhism, it seems that according to that which is a system, the processing is not finished until the mind / being’s actions or realizations transform into the Nirvana state. Such is believed to have taken many lifetimes if the current life isn’t the final one. Thus, “the work” which is common to both religions is perceived as not really ending in Buddhism until Nirvana.
It’s comforting to think that when i die it’s finally over.
The other side of the coin is that it’s incredibly unnerving because as every worker knows, getting fired really stinks – and anyone would be in real trouble if God ever fired them. The stakes are high when you only come around once.
Best–
Michael

 

[fhansen]

Peace and happiness to everyone here. You have helped me out a great deal with your thoughtful responses in the past and I hope you can do so again. I am grateful in advance.

So most world views, Christianity is not an exception, say there is something wrong with the state of things or man’s condition. For Christianity this “problem” is sin. Why is that?

I think we call agree that “problem” with the world is that human being experience suffering. I realize this is a bit of just restating the obvious and an A=A proposition. I think a Christian would say that sin is a problem because it causes human suffering. Right?

But not all suffering is caused by wrongful action and much suffering is due to natural causes such as illness or loss of loved one, or just the changes and chances of this life.

How is the fact that we violate a divine set of laws the fundamental issue and why we are not happy?

I do believe that as human beings we make mistakes and do great harm to each other and ourselves. But if we were morally perfect would we be free from suffering?

-Namaste, Fred

To the degree that we’re separated from God, the source of life, goodness, and happiness, we suffer. And the nearer we are to God, the less we sin, because we come closer to realizing the true fulfillment of our desires.

 

[friardchips]

To the degree that we’re separated from God, the source of life, goodness, and happiness, we suffer. And the nearer we are to God, the less we sin, because we come closer to realizing the true fulfillment of our desires.

• and yet this doesn’t mean stronger. The Saints prove that the closer one is to God, the greater one sees one’s own sinfulness and absolute need for Him, and so their greater awareness that they are very sinful and weak as human beings allows God to fill them even more - which is why they sin less. St. Paul kept the faith because he knew that when he was weak he was strong (in God). People don’t stop suffering because they are close to God, in fact, as a rule they suffer more. Suffering can be the consequences of our own sinfulness, as suggested above, as it leads us away from being aligned with God’s will, but it can also be a sign of being close to God internally. Otherwise, the danger is that worldly happiness can be put on the same level as peace in God. For example, those who undergo persecution for God, not due to their own sinfulness, are more blessed in a way than those who may say they know God but are living a very contented and placid life. It is also the case that to walk the narrow path is to suffer. That is not to say look for suffering but rather not to avoid it at all costs. If one is sinning it might be the result of being in an environment that is not best for the that individual. They may still be close to God but are doing their own consciences damage that makes a jump into another environment more difficult because of the misalignment. Sin also hurts trust and ultimately can destroy. But sinful inclinations can be testing to make people trust God more. God can make good from the bad. Everything if offered to God can be redemptive.

 

[fhansen]

• and yet this doesn’t mean stronger. The Saints prove that the closer one is to God, the greater one sees one’s own sinfulness and absolute need for Him, and so their greater awareness that they are very sinful and weak as human beings allows God to fill them even more - which is why they sin less. St. Paul kept the faith because he knew that when he was weak he was strong (in God). People don’t stop suffering because they are close to God, in fact, as a rule they suffer more. Suffering can be the consequences of our own sinfulness, as suggested above, as it leads us away from being aligned with God’s will, but it can also be a sign of being close to God internally. Otherwise, the danger is that worldly happiness can be put on the same level as peace in God. For example, those who undergo persecution for God, not due to their own sinfulness, are more blessed in a way than those who may say they know God but are living a very contented and placid life. It is also the case that to walk the narrow path is to suffer. That is not to say look for suffering but rather not to avoid it at all costs. If one is sinning it might be the result of being in an environment that is not best for the that individual. They may still be close to God but are doing their own consciences damage that makes a jump into another environment more difficult because of the misalignment. Sin also hurts trust and ultimately can destroy. But sinful inclinations can be testing to make people trust God more. God can make good from the bad. Everything if offered to God can be redemptive.

Either way, the original sin that caused man to become separated from God to begin with is the cause of all human suffering. Suffering ends when we’re in complete alignment with His will and in full communion with Him with the Beatific Vision. You’re right: because we never achieve that full communion in this life, then suffering increases from our knowledge of God; hunger and thirst intensify for that which we cannot have but which we understand we truly need in order to satisfy this natural desire in us. Man was made for complete, overflowing happiness- that’s why we 're always looking for it-but generally in all the wrong places. Anyway, peace becomes greater as we become enlightened in the things of God, as we become aware of His plan, as the things of the world grow dimmer in their attraction, but the desire for Him becomes stronger at the same time.

 

[friardchips]

Either way, the original sin that caused man to become separated from God to begin with is the cause of all human suffering. Suffering ends when we’re in complete alignment with His will and in full communion with Him with the Beatific Vision. You’re right: because we never achieve that full communion in this life, then suffering increases from our knowledge of God; hunger and thirst intensify for that which we cannot have but which we understand we truly need in order to satisfy this natural desire in us. Man was made for complete, overflowing happiness- that’s why we 're always looking for it-but generally in all the wrong places. Anyway, peace becomes greater as we become enlightened in the things of God, as we become aware of His plan, as the things of the world grow dimmer in their attraction, but the desire for Him becomes stronger at the same time.

Nice!

btw…I like your quotes from Saints very much. I guess the point is that we are called to this level of being. Hard though!

God bless!

 

[Michael19682]

I am beginning to wonder about the meaning of the responses ZenFred is getting.
I’m looking at it this way:

Adam’s sin was a necessary sin, as it brought about our salvation as Christians.
The suffering of Christ was a fact.
No power may ever keep us from God’s love in Christ.
Suffering is a power, no matter what it’s origins.

It now seems I (to me) like the important thing is to remain conscious of God’s love no matter what is happening. But even that seems unnecessary since unconsciousness is a power also, and therefore cannot keep us from his love.

Of what use then are questions, and debate. Is all this mere icing on for that matter what is cake and not bread?

We don;t like to suffer, but is such a like a legitimate one? After all, certain sins are pleasurable, but nevertheless are illicit!

 

[Michael19682]

To the degree that we’re separated from God, the source of life, goodness, and happiness, we suffer. And the nearer we are to God, the less we sin, because we come closer to realizing the true fulfillment of our desires.

Christ was God. How could he have been separated from Himself in suffering?

 

[friardchips]

I am beginning to wonder about the meaning of the responses ZenFred is getting.
I’m looking at it this way:

1. Adam’s sin was a necessary sin, as it brought about our salvation as Christians.
2. The suffering of Christ was a fact.
3. No power may ever keep us from God’s love in Christ.
4. Suffering is a power, no matter what it’s origins.
5. It now seems I (to me) like the important thing is to remain conscious of God’s love no matter what is happening. But even that seems unnecessary since unconsciousness is a power also, and therefore cannot keep us from his love.
6. Of what use then are questions, and debate. Is all this mere icing on for that matter what is cake and not bread?
7. We don;t like to suffer, but is such a like a legitimate one? 8. After all, certain sins are pleasurable, but nevertheless are illicit!

]

Hi. Just to respond to one of your posts:

Freewill:

1. Born of choice (sin - temptation)
2. Born of choice (sin - ignorance)
3. Except choice (sin - mortal )
4. Born of choice (sin - original )
5. Discernment
6. No use. I knew what I meant before I came to this forum
   now I am utterly confused in every thread. Bad choice!
7. Choice (the choice to suffer for Christ and share in his passion
   is redeeming, and therefore could be ‘liked’, but suffering is called
   ‘suffering’ for a reason - good choice). The one good choice.
8. Choice (the punishment for dying in mortal sin is death).

 

[fhansen]

Christ was God. How could he have been separated from Himself in suffering?

Um, I didn’t say Him; I said we. Christ voluntarily lowered Himself, identifying with humanity in, among other things, the suffering that resulted from the Fall of man. Being without sin, however, He was always in communion with the Father even in His human nature, unlike ourselves.

 

[friardchips]

To the OP who said: ‘I do believe that as human beings we make mistakes and do great harm to each other and ourselves. But if we were morally perfect would we be free from suffering?’

A state of Utopia is not -

( I think - since I can not say anything for certain anymore, since coming on this forum)

• considered a reality in this life. You are speaking of a morally incorrupt state of being which is heaven. There will be no eternal state of moral incorruptibility in this life. As perfect beings in our perfect creator in heaven we would be morally incorrupt and so free from suffering! -

( I think - since I can not say any etc…)

• God bless.

 

[Vico]

Peace and happiness to everyone here. You have helped me out a great deal with your thoughtful responses in the past and I hope you can do so again. I am grateful in advance.

So most world views, Christianity is not an exception, say there is something wrong with the state of things or man’s condition. For Christianity this “problem” is sin. Why is that?

I think we call agree that “problem” with the world is that human being experience suffering. I realize this is a bit of just restating the obvious and an A=A proposition. I think a Christian would say that sin is a problem because it causes human suffering. Right?

But not all suffering is caused by wrongful action and much suffering is due to natural causes such as illness or loss of loved one, or just the changes and chances of this life.

How is the fact that we violate a divine set of laws the fundamental issue and why we are not happy?

I do believe that as human beings we make mistakes and do great harm to each other and ourselves. But if we were morally perfect would we be free from suffering?

-Namaste, Fred

Adam and Eve had, and lost for us all, the preternatural gifts of infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence, and bodily immortality.

Suffering is the result of sin having entered the world, but its purpose is to expiate wrongdoing and to enable the believer to offer God a sacrifice of praise. Therefore the believer may unite with Christ, becoming an image (icon) of Christ.

John 15
18 If the world hate you, know ye, that it hath hated me before you.
19 If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20 Remember my word that I said to you: The servant is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you: if they have kept my word, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things they will do to you for my name’s sake: because they know not him who sent me.
22 If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.
23 He that hateth me, hateth my Father also.

Genesis 3:16-19 shows the results of the Fall:To the woman, he also said:

• “I will multiply your labors and your conceptions. In pain shall you give birth to sons, and you shall be under your husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over you.”

Yet truly, to Adam, he said:

• “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree, from which I instructed you that you should not eat, cursed is the land that you work. In hardship shall you eat from it, all the days of your life. Thorns and thistles shall it produce for you, and you shall eat the plants of the earth.
• By the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, until you return to the earth from which you were taken. For dust you are, and unto dust you shall return.”

 

[ZenFred]

Thank you to everyone for their posts that had helped clarify things.
We don’t have all that differing views on what suffering is or why we suffer.
I don’t believe in the doctrine of original sin and don’t know if natural disasters are the result of what I would call karma, unlike suffering caused by harmful acts by other humans. But at root we would both say we suffer because we don’t act with compassion or others are not compassionate to us and we are following “sinful” desires. For example, Michael said that sinful things are pleasurable at times and thus suffering/non-suffering isn’t always a helpful gauge. I would disagree and say that especially things that appear pleasurable will ultimately disappoint and lead to deeper suffering. A Christian would likely agree. Also in the multiple times you talk about suffering for the sake of Christ, I don’t consider that suffering if one is able to accept it gladly. Pain is what happens to you and suffering is how you perceive it (gross over simplification) . So I don’t think our two views of human nature in its natural un enlightened/unsaved state is all that different.

I think the real difference is what the solution is. But I’ll give people a chance to comment first.