Sin (issue or not)

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Magicsilence

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Is the issue of sin as big as we make it out to be. From what ive learned recently(stick with me):

God = perfect (always has and always will be)
Man = imperfect (always has and always will be)

The bridge between the two is Jesus, who tells us to have faith and “do as he does”, i.e - not sin. BUT if we cannot stop ourselves sinning since no man can be perfect, AND committing just one sin( no matter how small) is in Gods eyes “breaking all laws” then why do we strive for perfection. What do we gain? It does seem like the “once saved, always saved” arguement has weight BUT i dont agree with it. Its just with the above evidence im finding it hard to see why we should not commit sin, if its impossible and all seen as equal.

Note: I am a Catholic, but may be a little confused. Dont hound me if im wrong.
 
St. Paul seemed to think it was an issue.

St. Thomas Aquinas did too.

Have you ever read anything they had to say about it ?
 
  1. we cannot be free from sin - both St Paul and the Psalmist state that none are righteous before God
  2. Christ became sin for us - the justifying nature of his Passion
  3. sanctification is a process - St Paul speaks of working out our salvation with fear and trembling
  4. we will be refined by God - Isaiah 1, God says, speaking through the prophet, that he shall turn his hand against us and refine us like silver
  5. Wisdom says that God chastizes us little by little so that little we might turn to him and be saved
God hasn’t stopped calling people to him, but fewer people seem to be seeking him. With the increase in population over the last hundred years, it is not hard to do the math.
 
The existance of the sacrament of reconciliation (confession, penance) would seem to indicate that refraining from mortal sins is important. To be saved we have to die in a state of grace. That means we have to have been baptised by some means (documents of Vatican II explain more obscure means) and have at least imperfect contrition for our sins. Man can only obtain this through God’s grace which is available to everyone just for the asking. So the life of grace can be achieved only by a constant struggle with our sinful nature assisted by our constant prayers for God’s help.
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Magicsilence:
Is the issue of sin as big as we make it out to be. From what ive learned recently(stick with me):

God = perfect (always has and always will be)
Man = imperfect (always has and always will be)

The bridge between the two is Jesus, who tells us to have faith and “do as he does”, i.e - not sin. BUT if we cannot stop ourselves sinning since no man can be perfect, AND committing just one sin( no matter how small) is in Gods eyes “breaking all laws” then why do we strive for perfection. What do we gain? It does seem like the “once saved, always saved” arguement has weight BUT i dont agree with it. Its just with the above evidence im finding it hard to see why we should not commit sin, if its impossible and all seen as equal.

Note: I am a Catholic, but may be a little confused. Dont hound me if im wrong.
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There is no automatic elevator to Heaven. You have to work for your reward, and that includes striving for a sin-free life. Granted, none of us gets there, but God grades on effort.

The “Jesus understands” mentality really annoys me, since it’s a license to go out and commit any sin you want - rape, murder, embezzlement, genocide - and then blow it off with “Jesus understands.” He understands we’re fundamentally imperfect, but using that as an excuse for not trying to be better is NOT an okay thing to do.
 
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Magicsilence:
Is the issue of sin as big as we make it out to be. From what ive learned recently(stick with me):

God = perfect (always has and always will be)
Man = imperfect (always has and always will be)

The bridge between the two is Jesus, who tells us to have faith and “do as he does”, i.e - not sin. BUT if we cannot stop ourselves sinning since no man can be perfect, AND committing just one sin( no matter how small) is in Gods eyes “breaking all laws” then why do we strive for perfection. What do we gain? It does seem like the “once saved, always saved” arguement has weight BUT i dont agree with it. Its just with the above evidence im finding it hard to see why we should not commit sin, if its impossible and all seen as equal.

Note: I am a Catholic, but may be a little confused. Dont hound me if im wrong.
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It sounds like you’ve been influenced by fundamental Protestant theology. Contrary to this flawed theology, God does indeed differentiate mortal sin from venial sin. Stealing $100 is worse than stealing $1, although both are wrong.

And who said we can never be perfect?? That’s the goal of Christian life! Fundamentalists (whom I’m assuming have influenced your thinking) will say that God merely “declares” us righteous when we accept Jesus-- like a judge in a courtroom declares someone not guilty. But that would make God a liar. He can’t call someone righteous if he’s still filthy with sin!

Here is-- to the best of my understanding-- how the Catholic Church teaches we’re saved (and why it IS absolutely necessary to avoid sin):
  1. Baptism-- this literally washes away every sin on our soul at the time. It puts us in perfect communion and friendship with God through the merits of Christ. In other words, we’re in a state of grace.
  2. But we still have our free will and can choose to sin even after baptism. Venial sin does not sever our relationship with God, but it damages it, and constant venial sin weakens our souls and leads to mortal sin. Mortal sin is a grave sin completed with free will and full knowledge. It cuts us off from the life of grace. We must be reconciled to God once again through confession.
  3. Through confession, we’re restored as perfectly as we were the moment of our baptism. God doesn’t merely “see” us as righteous after baptism/confession-- He truly makes us righteous! Our souls are literally spotless-- we’re perfect!
  4. The goal is to preserve that perfection that God freely gives us-- His grace. Nothing we do merits initial grace. But we can do things to throw it away.
  5. We can throw our perfection through grace away by sinning. But it’s impossible NOT to sin, right? WRONG. Jesus died so we would have access to His divinity. Through the sacraments and a strong prayer life (personal relationship), the Lord gives us the grace to reject sin-- something we could never completely do on our own. Without God, we can reject some sin, such as murder, adultery, etc. But we can’t reject all sin, because we’re fallen creatures. So Jesus died to FREE us from sin. He literally frees us from sin-- He allows us to overcome sin by feeding us through the sacraments, primarily the Eucharist. That’s why Mass is so important.
  6. So, it’s necessary to die in a state of grace to go to heaven. To die in a state of grace, one must be free of ANY mortal sin at the time of death. One avoids mortal sin by receiving the grace from God through Jesus to avoid the sin, to say no to the temptation. This grace is applied to us through the sacraments primarily (the chief of which is the Eucharist), but also through prayer and a true relationship with Christ.
By following the promptings of the Holy Spirit and saying yes to grace, we truly can be sin-free and perfect in eyes of God! Don’t let anyone tell you anything less.

Oh and I forgot to add an important point: you noted in your post that Christ does indeed instruct us to do as He does, which you rightly inferred to mean living a sinless life. Why would Jesus give us an impossible command? He wouldn’t. “With man, [salvation] is not possible. With God, all things are possible.”

Isn’t Christ amazing?
 
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UKcatholicGuy:
It sounds like you’ve been influenced by fundamental Protestant theology. Contrary to this flawed theology, God does indeed differentiate mortal sin from venial sin. Stealing $100 is worse than stealing $1, although both are wrong.

And who said we can never be perfect?? That’s the goal of Christian life! Fundamentalists (whom I’m assuming have influenced your thinking) will say that God merely “declares” us righteous when we accept Jesus-- like a judge in a courtroom declares someone not guilty. But that would make God a liar. He can’t call someone righteous if he’s still filthy with sin!

Here is-- to the best of my understanding-- how the Catholic Church teaches we’re saved (and why it IS absolutely necessary to avoid sin):
  1. Baptism-- this literally washes away every sin on our soul at the time. It puts us in perfect communion and friendship with God through the merits of Christ. In other words, we’re in a state of grace.
  2. But we still have our free will and can choose to sin even after baptism. Venial sin does not sever our relationship with God, but it damages it, and constant venial sin weakens our souls and leads to mortal sin. Mortal sin is a grave sin completed with free will and full knowledge. It cuts us off from the life of grace. We must be reconciled to God once again through confession.
  3. Through confession, we’re restored as perfectly as we were the moment of our baptism. God doesn’t merely “see” us as righteous after baptism/confession-- He truly makes us righteous! Our souls are literally spotless-- we’re perfect!
  4. The goal is to preserve that perfection that God freely gives us-- His grace. Nothing we do merits initial grace. But we can do things to throw it away.
  5. We can throw our perfection through grace away by sinning. But it’s impossible NOT to sin, right? WRONG. Jesus died so we would have access to His divinity. Through the sacraments and a strong prayer life (personal relationship), the Lord gives us the grace to reject sin-- something we could never completely do on our own. Without God, we can reject some sin, such as murder, adultery, etc. But we can’t reject all sin, because we’re fallen creatures. So Jesus died to FREE us from sin. He literally frees us from sin-- He allows us to overcome sin by feeding us through the sacraments, primarily the Eucharist. That’s why Mass is so important.
  6. So, it’s necessary to die in a state of grace to go to heaven. To die in a state of grace, one must be free of ANY mortal sin at the time of death. One avoids mortal sin by receiving the grace from God through Jesus to avoid the sin, to say no to the temptation. This grace is applied to us through the sacraments primarily (the chief of which is the Eucharist), but also through prayer and a true relationship with Christ.
By following the promptings of the Holy Spirit and saying yes to grace, we truly can be sin-free and perfect in eyes of God! Don’t let anyone tell you anything less.

Oh and I forgot to add an important point: you noted in your post that Christ does indeed instruct us to do as He does, which you rightly inferred to mean living a sinless life. Why would Jesus give us an impossible command? He wouldn’t. “With man, [salvation] is not possible. With God, all things are possible.”

Isn’t Christ amazing?
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Oh yes, is he ever!! Praise God!

I have a feeling I would agree with you on just about anything. 👍 Just a hunch…
 
What is salvation?
  1. Conviction to the Mystery of God.
2.a. Conviction to the mystery of myself (lowercase m -understanding I am not perfect)

2.b. Conviction to the Mystery of God in the mystery of myself.

Put all three convictions together and you have the action of salvation.

Action it is.

This action eventually leads us to be the people God calls us to be. Dealing with sin along the way is all part of it. How we deal with sin during this lifelong process of salvation does matter. What is important is that we realize that these convictions are important together. They can’t be separated and still obtain salvation. Sin is part of it but with us only till we die. We are humans.
 
The flaw in your argument is “committing just one sin( no matter how small) is in Gods eyes ‘breaking all laws’”. This is false.

The true statement is “Committing one sin is breaking the law.”

If someone robs a bank, he has broken the law. He has not broken all of the laws.
 
I think a simple question to ask yourself is, do you trust God?

If you believe that something is a sin, i.e. God doesn’t want you to do it… then look at WHY it is a sin. God doesn’t just make up stupid rules to mess us around. God wants the best for us, so if something is a sin it means it is bad for us (and also society) if we do it. That should be motivation enough to avoid sin - because we trust that our Creator know what is best for us.
 
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