Sin unto Death

[CatholicDanM]

Why does John say we shouldn’t pray for Christians who have sinned the “sin unto death?” Does he mean that prayer would be useless because God won’t forgive it?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Hi there.

It would be MOST helpful if you would give chapter and verse from John so that we know exactly what was said, and in what contex. Would it be this?

16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask. 17 All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death. 18 We know that whosoever is born of God, sinneth not: but the generation of God preserveth him, and the wicked one toucheth him not. 19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world is seated in wickedness. 20 And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God, and may be in his true Son. This is the true God and life eternal.

From the Douay Rheims Bible we have the following footnotes:

16 “A sin which is not to death”… It is hard to determine what St. John here calls a sin which is not to death, and a sin which is unto death. The difference can not be the same as betwixt sins that are called venial and mortal: for he says, that if a man pray for his brother, who commits a sin that is not to death, life shall be given him: therefore such a one had before lost the life of grace, and been guilty of what is commonly called a mortal sin. And when he speaks of a sin that is unto death, and adds these words, for that I say not that any man ask, it cannot be supposed that St. John would say this of every mortal sin, but only of some heinous sins, which are very seldom remitted, because such sinners very seldom repent. By a sin therefore which is unto death, interpreters commonly understand a wilfull apostasy from the faith, and from the known truth, when a sinner, hardened by his own ingratitude, becomes deaf to all admonitions, will do nothing for himself, but runs on to a final impenitence. Nor yet does St. John say, that such a sin is never remitted, or cannot be remitted, but only has these words, for that I say not that any man ask the remission: that is, though we must pray for all sinners whatsoever, yet men can not pray for such sinners with such a confidence of obtaining always their petitions, as St. John said before, ver. 14. Whatever exposition we follow on this verse, our faith teacheth us from the holy scriptures, that God desires not the death of any sinner, but that he be converted and live, Ezech. 33. 11. Though men’s sins be as red as scarlet, they shall become as white as snow, Isa. 3. 18. It is the will of God that every one come to the knowledge of the truth, and be saved. There is no sin so great but which God is willing to forgive, and has left a power in his church to remit the most enormous sins: so that no sinner need despair of pardon, nor will any sinner perish, but by his own fault.

16 “A sin unto death”… Some understand this of final impenitence, or of dying in mortal sin; which is the only sin that never can be remitted. But, it is probable, he may also comprise under this name, the sin of apostasy from the faith, and some other such heinous sins as are seldom and hardly remitted: and therefore he gives little encouragement, to such as pray for these sinners, to expect what they ask.

 

[Lazerlike42]

More or less, what John is telling us is that praying for someone who committed venial sin can directly benefit a person. God can take our prayer and answer it directly, because the venial sin is more or less “automatically covered” be Christ’s sacrifice. However, a person who is in mortal sin needs to personally turn back to God. A person in mortal sin has turned his back on God and rejected the sacrifice of Christ. Our prayers can’t help them as directly. We can pray that they repent, but we can’t simply pray for their forgiveness, because only when persons turn back to God of their own free will can He forgive them.

When Jesus died example, He said, “Father forgive them, they know not what they do.” In other words, they hadn’t committed mortal sin; they didn’t have the knowledge to do that. Because of this, the men could simply be forgiven. However, mortal sin is a turning of the will away from God. A person in mortal sin needs to turn his will back to God first, which we can’t “force” them to do through our prayers.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

1 Corinthians 5:3-5 with 1:8 describe Paul’s delivering a believer in sin over to Satan for the destruction of his body when the man’s spirit is to be salvaged in the day of Christ.

I think this is an example of the sin unto death. Another example would be Acts 5:3-5.

These two texts describe people who experienced physical death as the result of their sin.

 

[Lazerlike42]

1 Corinthians 5:3-5 with 1:8 describe Paul’s delivering a believer in sin over to Satan for the destruction of his body when the man’s spirit is to be salvaged in the day of Christ.

I think this is an example of the sin unto death. Another example would be Acts 5:3-5.

These two texts describe people who experienced physical death as the result of their sin.

1 Corinthians 5 is not discussing physical death at all. What St. Paul is referring to is what we call excommunication today. This fellow had grown to be so sinful and was so obstinant and would not listen to people who would admonish him that St. Paul commands the Corinthians to turn him over to Satan, by which he means to not allow him into the church community and to expel him to the world (the world being a posession of Satan, more or less) so that he might experience the consequences of his sin. This is meant to be medicinal and to convince the man to repent and to return to to the Church. We know this because in 2 Corinthians, St. Paul writes that since the man has changed his ways, the Corinthians are to accept him back.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Why would Satan seek to destroy one’s sin nature?

 

[Lazerlike42]

Daniel Marsh:

Why would Satan seek to destroy one’s sin nature?

He wouldn’t. Sin comes with all sorts of effects and sufferings that naturally flow from it. For example, if you sin by yelling at your friend, the natural punishment that comes along with that is your friend doesn’t like you any more. If you steal, there is a natural consequence that you will go to jail. If you are a glutton, there is the natural consequence that you will be very unhealthy and have medical problems. When St. Paul commands that this individual be given over to Satan, he means that he is to be expelled from the community and given to the outside world, which as we read Satan is the prince of. The idea is that while under the power of Satan’s temptations, the man will sin enough to have so many natural consequences flow that he will realize that sin just causes pain and repent.

Basically, you know how many times people come to Christ because their lives hit rock bottom because of all the sins they are in? St. Paul is instructing the Corinthians to expel the man so that this can happen so that he will have a true conversion.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.