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jdavani
Guest
I was defending the truth that men are men and women are women when someone brought up intersex people to refute me. What’s the church teaching on them? Are they distinctly male or female?
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Cruciferi
Guest
There’s never been a true fertile human hermaphrodite. It’s impossible. However, different deformities during embryonic development can result in ambiguous genitalia. You’re either man or woman. Testing and physical exams can determine this. Some advocate sex assignment at birth for those born with an ambiguous sex; however, that’s been regarded as a bad idea. It’s better to wait until puberty before any kind of reconstruction is performed.
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Jared2914
Guest
The Church has not made a definitive statement in this area, probably because such a small percentage of the population is intersex. The Church generally only speaks on things when they become big issues. Anyways, the Bible says God created them male and female. This implies every person is either male or female. This means even people with both male and female chromosomes or both male and female reproductive organs must have some intended sex by God. The hard part is figuring out which one it is.
Sometimes it’s obvious. The person may have malformed reproductive organs from one sex but functioning reproductive organs of the other sex. It’s pretty obvious to keep the functioning organs and raise the child with the gender that lines up with the organs.
Other times it’s not clear. Think of the case of a person that has both male and female chromosomes as well as nonfunctioning reproductive organs from both sexes. There is no way to tell what God intended. Here, the only option is to pray to God for discernment and then make a decision. I think it would be okay for the parents to decide this and do whatever surgery is necessary or wait until the child enters puberty and let them decide.
One of the big questions here is should people with ambiguous gender be allowed to switch genders throughout their life? The feeling I have is that the choice they make should be permanent unless they find evidence later of what God intended their sex to be, but maybe they might feel God calling them to be male as a teenager but 20 years later feel called to be female? It doesn’t feel right to me. My fear would be normal people with a clear sex would start clamoring to be allowed to change gender because “God is calling me to be a woman”. If the Church ever takes on this topic, there will be much to discuss and debate about.
Sometimes it’s obvious. The person may have malformed reproductive organs from one sex but functioning reproductive organs of the other sex. It’s pretty obvious to keep the functioning organs and raise the child with the gender that lines up with the organs.
Other times it’s not clear. Think of the case of a person that has both male and female chromosomes as well as nonfunctioning reproductive organs from both sexes. There is no way to tell what God intended. Here, the only option is to pray to God for discernment and then make a decision. I think it would be okay for the parents to decide this and do whatever surgery is necessary or wait until the child enters puberty and let them decide.
One of the big questions here is should people with ambiguous gender be allowed to switch genders throughout their life? The feeling I have is that the choice they make should be permanent unless they find evidence later of what God intended their sex to be, but maybe they might feel God calling them to be male as a teenager but 20 years later feel called to be female? It doesn’t feel right to me. My fear would be normal people with a clear sex would start clamoring to be allowed to change gender because “God is calling me to be a woman”. If the Church ever takes on this topic, there will be much to discuss and debate about.
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anikins
Guest
Incorrect. Some human beings are born with XXY chromosomes. Both male and female.
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Lea101
Guest
I’m not sure about all intersex conditions like I have already said in another thread, but conditions like this still point to an underlying sex. Eg the fetus would have developed into a female fetus, but the presence of something/abnormality causes the intersex condition to happen
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Lea101
Guest
Eg Klinefelter syndrome (xxy chromosomes) affect males, so that is their underlying sex. But the confusion and mismatch and all that affects their gender identity
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BornInMarch
Guest
It’s a “big deal” to them! If an intersex person wants to know what God’s place for them is, then the church needs to have an answer.
God isn’t a demographer - for Him, every single individual matters.
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0Scarlett_nidiyilii
Guest
Birth defect.
Some people are born with heart defects, or fewer than four limbs or only one kidney, or extra ribs.
We live in a fallen world.
Birth defects and illnesses and injuries happen.
If you have ovaries and producing eggs, you’re female.
If you have testicles and producing sperm, you’re male.
Some people are born with heart defects, or fewer than four limbs or only one kidney, or extra ribs.
We live in a fallen world.
Birth defects and illnesses and injuries happen.
If you have ovaries and producing eggs, you’re female.
If you have testicles and producing sperm, you’re male.
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Cruciferi
Guest
@anikins What you described is Klinefelter syndrome. My cousin has that and is definitely a man!
Does the person produce male or female gametes? That’s the first question you should answer.
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Kei
Guest
As far as I know, there has not been a single verified case of someone having both types of genetalia both be fully functional.
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Cruciferi
Guest
Precisely! You can be severely deformed perhaps even sterile; however, you cannot be both. It’s the smoke of Satan trying to confuse concrete biology. We’re humans, not clown fish or flat worms 
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ErraticFaith
Guest
Nothing more than a mental condition and defect.
Or do you want to start saying that people with Down’s syndrome, schizophrenia and a whole host of other issues are just the way people ‘can be’ if they want too.
No? Of course not. Because we accept these things as separate from the norm. They lessen people’s lives and we support them as such.
Mental illness should be cured. Not encouraged. Or do you want to have a hand in breeding these sorts of things into the mainstream and destroying our species?
No? Then quit the nonsense.
As Ben Shapiro said a while ago (with statistics and facts that could be checked independently, for those who don’t like him) - transgender operations made no difference at all to suicide rates and the mental condition of these people.
You can’t help everyone. That’s just life. We should try yes but there’s a difference between helping someone wita a problem and teaching it to children and messing up their minds to try and make them ill too. People shouldn’t have to be forced to Embrace or become homosexual/trans just to make others feel better.
Enough is enough. Gender roles aren’t just Gods work but biology and science that we are coming to understand ourselves.
Transgender is a delusion. A broken person who needs help returning to what they are actually born as (written clearly in their DNA.
Stop trying to effeminate mentally Ill men (or vice versa obviously) by turning them into women.
People can say an awful lot hypothetically. But you go out there on the web, around the world, whatever. Look at how these people act and talk? THEY ARE NUTCASES. Plain and simple. Not something to be encouraged.
And they are that way because their hormones are messed up and confused. They don’t know what they are doing. They need help with that and understanding. Not hack jobs to reprogram them like robots and feed their warped mental state.
Or do you want to start saying that people with Down’s syndrome, schizophrenia and a whole host of other issues are just the way people ‘can be’ if they want too.
No? Of course not. Because we accept these things as separate from the norm. They lessen people’s lives and we support them as such.
Mental illness should be cured. Not encouraged. Or do you want to have a hand in breeding these sorts of things into the mainstream and destroying our species?
No? Then quit the nonsense.
As Ben Shapiro said a while ago (with statistics and facts that could be checked independently, for those who don’t like him) - transgender operations made no difference at all to suicide rates and the mental condition of these people.
You can’t help everyone. That’s just life. We should try yes but there’s a difference between helping someone wita a problem and teaching it to children and messing up their minds to try and make them ill too. People shouldn’t have to be forced to Embrace or become homosexual/trans just to make others feel better.
Enough is enough. Gender roles aren’t just Gods work but biology and science that we are coming to understand ourselves.
Transgender is a delusion. A broken person who needs help returning to what they are actually born as (written clearly in their DNA.
Stop trying to effeminate mentally Ill men (or vice versa obviously) by turning them into women.
People can say an awful lot hypothetically. But you go out there on the web, around the world, whatever. Look at how these people act and talk? THEY ARE NUTCASES. Plain and simple. Not something to be encouraged.
And they are that way because their hormones are messed up and confused. They don’t know what they are doing. They need help with that and understanding. Not hack jobs to reprogram them like robots and feed their warped mental state.
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StephieNorthCo
Guest
Comments on a few posts…
Not all intersex people are sterile. In some cases one set works, the other doesn’t. However, there was at least two reported cases of both functional. They were not cross functional (self fertilization).
Most intersex people I know do not widely publish. Being a lab rat is not a very nice job.
Intersex has touched my family twice, although there isn’t supposed to be a heredity component to it, nor am I claiming one. In both cases, removal of one set of hormonal producing organs was necessary. In one case the person was within hours of death.
Transgender is an umbrella term from cross dressers, drag queens, gender queer (whatever that means), transvestites, etc etc etc. Most of those are mental issues that need to be addressed. This is primarily what the anything goes “lobby” supports, unfortunately.
The Vatican had for a long time a document on its site (in a quick scan I couldn’t find it, but that doesn’t mean it’s not there). 10 cent summary: don’t know what these people are (intersex), but they exist and are and have been from birth one sex or the other. Since we (Church) don’t know their sex, they are expected to be celibate. We do respect their prayerful discernment given a well formed conscience.
I would totally agree that most “professionals” in this area are indeed “hack jobs”, but not all are.
Yes, God made us Male exclusive-or Female. In some cases, it’s one of St. Paul’s “thorns” to be dealt with, just like SSA, addictions, loss of or missing limbs, Downs Syndrome and the like.
Blessings,
Stephie
Not all intersex people are sterile. In some cases one set works, the other doesn’t. However, there was at least two reported cases of both functional. They were not cross functional (self fertilization).
Most intersex people I know do not widely publish. Being a lab rat is not a very nice job.
Intersex has touched my family twice, although there isn’t supposed to be a heredity component to it, nor am I claiming one. In both cases, removal of one set of hormonal producing organs was necessary. In one case the person was within hours of death.
Transgender is an umbrella term from cross dressers, drag queens, gender queer (whatever that means), transvestites, etc etc etc. Most of those are mental issues that need to be addressed. This is primarily what the anything goes “lobby” supports, unfortunately.
The Vatican had for a long time a document on its site (in a quick scan I couldn’t find it, but that doesn’t mean it’s not there). 10 cent summary: don’t know what these people are (intersex), but they exist and are and have been from birth one sex or the other. Since we (Church) don’t know their sex, they are expected to be celibate. We do respect their prayerful discernment given a well formed conscience.
I would totally agree that most “professionals” in this area are indeed “hack jobs”, but not all are.
Yes, God made us Male exclusive-or Female. In some cases, it’s one of St. Paul’s “thorns” to be dealt with, just like SSA, addictions, loss of or missing limbs, Downs Syndrome and the like.
Blessings,
Stephie
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ATraveller
Guest
It’s quite clear male and female is the intent. Sometimes an error in DNA replication in the production of sperm causes the gene that causes sex differentiation to be misplaced. It’s arguable intersex is a disorder but many activists, who often than not have no background in the natural sciences, are trying impose political correctness onto multiple fields. They argue ‘disorder’ sounds mean. But I don’t see the same level of effort when scientists call Down Syndrome a chromosomal disorder or a congenital heart defect a disorder. ‘Disorder’ is simply describing something where things did not turn out the way it was supposed to or expected. It doesn’t mean be abusive to those who are different. We are still called to be compassionate.
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0Scarlett_nidiyilii
Guest
Are you confusing intersex with transgender?
Intersex is a physical condition of abnormal chromosomes and/or ambiguous genitalia.
Transgender is the belief that one was born in the body of the wrong sex.
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buffalo
Guest
Adam and Eve were created without the genetic load we now have. Humans are devolving every generation.
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BornInMarch
Guest
What if someone has both?
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0Scarlett_nidiyilii
Guest
I don’t believe there ever been a case of somebody with working ovaries that produce eggs and working testes that produce sperm.
But I could be wrong, so would you mind producing a link or citation?
Thanks and peace.
But I could be wrong, so would you mind producing a link or citation?
Thanks and peace.
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blanchardman
Guest
You might find this interesting.
http://www.on1foot.org/text/genesis-rabbah-81
http://www.on1foot.org/text/genesis-rabbah-81
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