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BarbTh
Guest
Good post with some positive and practical suggestions.
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Michael19682
Guest
The end result is to not judge at all. If all judgment “boils down” to “sin earns you hell,” then really, no matter what, who or how we judge, we are condemning ourselves? In as much as everyone has sin.
What the original post was really doing was making complaint, not really judgment – on second thought. But there is a fine line there as well, between knowing sin is bad, and condemning it, or instructing the sinner, versus falling into the trap of judging the sinner.
To “loose on earth,” means, I would guess and think, to release from grasp and let go back into the fire, if that is what it is:
Jude 23: save others by snatching them out of the fire; on others have mercy with fear, abhorring even the outer garment stained by the flesh.
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BarbTh
Guest
Thank you for your comments. I must admit, I am a bit confused by some of them.
My own comments re judgement were related to those who pass some sort of a judgement unfavourably on another - and thus the other “becoming a victim”. We can only become a victim of another’s judgement if we choose to take that judgement on board - and that any kind of unkind judgement on another is wrongful and the spiritual problem of the person who judges only…unless I take the judgement on board and then it becomes not only the judging person’s spiritual problem for judging in the first place, it is my psychological problem since I have chosen to take the judgement on board and therefore make of myself a victim and burdened by another’s comments and judgement.
I did not mean my comments to be directly related to the opening poster’s statements and questions. What it was related to is your statement further on re becoming a victim due to the judgement of others i.e. " If you are a victim, then you are a victim. Let the others answer for their shortcomings when their time comes." Which, it seems to me now, is that we are both possibly saying the same thing differently. And as I stated at the time, I thought your Post was a really good post and having re-read it I still think the same.
We can and should certainly state if something (objective statement) is wrong on some level etc. though we are still only ‘seeing’ in part alone. That can be instructing the sinner as The Church does term it. And we are all without exception sinners in need of instruction somewhere or other on some level or other. Samuel Ch16 “Not as man sees does God see, because man sees the appearance but the LORD looks into the heart.”
We fallible creatures simply are not and are never ever in a valid position to pass personal judgements on others. We certainly can at times state/instruct that something (objective statement) is wrong perhaps morally wrong, even seriously morally wrong in the case of grave matter. We can even share Church Teaching of the dreadful possible consequences of serious moral wrong or grave matter - but still staying on the objective level rather than directly accusing on the subjective level.
My own comments re judgement were related to those who pass some sort of a judgement unfavourably on another - and thus the other “becoming a victim”. We can only become a victim of another’s judgement if we choose to take that judgement on board - and that any kind of unkind judgement on another is wrongful and the spiritual problem of the person who judges only…unless I take the judgement on board and then it becomes not only the judging person’s spiritual problem for judging in the first place, it is my psychological problem since I have chosen to take the judgement on board and therefore make of myself a victim and burdened by another’s comments and judgement.
I did not mean my comments to be directly related to the opening poster’s statements and questions. What it was related to is your statement further on re becoming a victim due to the judgement of others i.e. " If you are a victim, then you are a victim. Let the others answer for their shortcomings when their time comes." Which, it seems to me now, is that we are both possibly saying the same thing differently. And as I stated at the time, I thought your Post was a really good post and having re-read it I still think the same.
We can and should certainly state if something (objective statement) is wrong on some level etc. though we are still only ‘seeing’ in part alone. That can be instructing the sinner as The Church does term it. And we are all without exception sinners in need of instruction somewhere or other on some level or other. Samuel Ch16 “Not as man sees does God see, because man sees the appearance but the LORD looks into the heart.”
We fallible creatures simply are not and are never ever in a valid position to pass personal judgements on others. We certainly can at times state/instruct that something (objective statement) is wrong perhaps morally wrong, even seriously morally wrong in the case of grave matter. We can even share Church Teaching of the dreadful possible consequences of serious moral wrong or grave matter - but still staying on the objective level rather than directly accusing on the subjective level.
Only mortal sin has attached intrinsically to it the consequences of eternal damnation in Hell. When I commit mortal sin, I am at once also choosing Hell. I very much doubt that all types of judgement are mortally sinful. This does not mean at all that one can judge providing it is not a case of mortal sin. All personal judgement of another is morally wrong on some level.
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MacQ
Guest
That’s the oddity to me about this whole thread.
Sounds like an excuse…
The OP ought to know the person on the other side of her fence thinks her side is greener too.
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bardegaulois
Guest
If I may, I’d like to turn this back around to the original question. Thinking this this over, I come to the conclusion that this really doesn’t seem to be a vocational issue (in the sense of life-long vocations) at all.
However, it’s rather easy to see why one might think of this as a vocational issue, and that is the general lack of clarity about the non-married, non-clerical, non-religious state. It is precisely that lack of clarity (which is likely an irresolvable thing, to my mind) that can lead one who is not living one of the traditional vocations to make his state a scapegoat for all manner of issues. Worsening this can be all of the attempts to define a role for them, usually involving all the various work for the poor, for the parish, and for families that nobody else wants to do–because they’re considered more expendable than anyone else, right?–leading one to become even more morose in thinking they are failing even at the vocation that many would consider vocationlessness.
When it comes down to it, though, the state of life can’t be blamed; instead, it comes down to the situation of one’s life and what one is doing with it. Just because one seemed to have little direction earlier in life or turned down some blind alleys and learned a very important lesson because of it does not mean that one is justified in having little direction or just going with the flow later–especially if it makes one miserable. So if the issue of vocation comes into this, that vocation is what one is being called to do now, rather than what one is planning throughout the rest of one’s life. And if one is in a state of desolation, the call is obvious: cleave fast to God through prayer and frequent reception of the sacraments, fervently entreating that He might give one direction and order one’s life to the end of His glory.
Then, use common sense. If something is causing anxiety, and one is not bound to do it, then one simply just should no longer do it. If one is bound or has no option, though, then one should offer it as penance. And if one’s life seems empty, then fill it, whether with prayer, with study, with service, as one’s gifts of grace and nature allow. It’s no different than a stimulus provoking a response in the biological world. God does not want us to be depressed, but will use a sort of depression or isolation as a stimulus to prompt us down a certain path. Thus, that empty time and space can perhaps best be seen as a preparation for what might come next, and often that is unknown to us. So whatever one chooses to do with that emptiness (which some might even term freedom) is best offered to God the Holy Spirit, that He might orchestrate it to His own glory.
Most of all, just ignore the pious well-wishers and learn to say no. Those who worry about having no role will have others define those roles for them, and that role will never do them justice. Think about it this way: if most of our saints had just bended to the fancies of others, would they have become saints? The only other person Whose will we should care about is God Himself. So what do you want to do? When you know that, do it. If it’s not what you’re supposed to be doing, trust that God will let you know somehow or make it impossible. If God will have you go down another path, trust that He’ll send you down another path. So long as you remain close to Him and trust in Him, you’ve really nothing to fear.
However, it’s rather easy to see why one might think of this as a vocational issue, and that is the general lack of clarity about the non-married, non-clerical, non-religious state. It is precisely that lack of clarity (which is likely an irresolvable thing, to my mind) that can lead one who is not living one of the traditional vocations to make his state a scapegoat for all manner of issues. Worsening this can be all of the attempts to define a role for them, usually involving all the various work for the poor, for the parish, and for families that nobody else wants to do–because they’re considered more expendable than anyone else, right?–leading one to become even more morose in thinking they are failing even at the vocation that many would consider vocationlessness.
When it comes down to it, though, the state of life can’t be blamed; instead, it comes down to the situation of one’s life and what one is doing with it. Just because one seemed to have little direction earlier in life or turned down some blind alleys and learned a very important lesson because of it does not mean that one is justified in having little direction or just going with the flow later–especially if it makes one miserable. So if the issue of vocation comes into this, that vocation is what one is being called to do now, rather than what one is planning throughout the rest of one’s life. And if one is in a state of desolation, the call is obvious: cleave fast to God through prayer and frequent reception of the sacraments, fervently entreating that He might give one direction and order one’s life to the end of His glory.
Then, use common sense. If something is causing anxiety, and one is not bound to do it, then one simply just should no longer do it. If one is bound or has no option, though, then one should offer it as penance. And if one’s life seems empty, then fill it, whether with prayer, with study, with service, as one’s gifts of grace and nature allow. It’s no different than a stimulus provoking a response in the biological world. God does not want us to be depressed, but will use a sort of depression or isolation as a stimulus to prompt us down a certain path. Thus, that empty time and space can perhaps best be seen as a preparation for what might come next, and often that is unknown to us. So whatever one chooses to do with that emptiness (which some might even term freedom) is best offered to God the Holy Spirit, that He might orchestrate it to His own glory.
Most of all, just ignore the pious well-wishers and learn to say no. Those who worry about having no role will have others define those roles for them, and that role will never do them justice. Think about it this way: if most of our saints had just bended to the fancies of others, would they have become saints? The only other person Whose will we should care about is God Himself. So what do you want to do? When you know that, do it. If it’s not what you’re supposed to be doing, trust that God will let you know somehow or make it impossible. If God will have you go down another path, trust that He’ll send you down another path. So long as you remain close to Him and trust in Him, you’ve really nothing to fear.
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BarbTh
Guest
Excellent post indeed by bardegaulois ! Thank you for sharing your thoughts. 
Post by bardegaulois located here :
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12387516&postcount=45
The only thing I would like to add is that if you are experiencing confusion over your vocation and the content (or if you may not be but have a desire to live a committed spiritual life in Love of God and neighbour), sound spiritual direction is invaluable. Very often a parish priest does not have the time available nor the training to undertake ongoing spiritual direction. Pope Benedict did recommend spiritual direction for all the faithful, not only priests, brothers and nuns.
Two other sources of finding a director are:
If all fails in finding a spiritual director, then I think the post by bardegaulois has really excellent and sound advice and thoughts to share - and even if one should have a director.
Post by bardegaulois located here :
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12387516&postcount=45
The only thing I would like to add is that if you are experiencing confusion over your vocation and the content (or if you may not be but have a desire to live a committed spiritual life in Love of God and neighbour), sound spiritual direction is invaluable. Very often a parish priest does not have the time available nor the training to undertake ongoing spiritual direction. Pope Benedict did recommend spiritual direction for all the faithful, not only priests, brothers and nuns.
Two other sources of finding a director are:
- Contact your diocesan offices. Very often they do have a list of trained spiritual directors in the diocese and will send out the list, on request, of names and their contact points, usually a telephone number.
- Contact religious orders of priests, brothers or nuns, even religious sisters in your diocese and ask if they can undertake spiritual direction. Sometimes they do undertake spiritual direction. If they do not, sometimes they have points of those who might.
If all fails in finding a spiritual director, then I think the post by bardegaulois has really excellent and sound advice and thoughts to share - and even if one should have a director.
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iwillrisenow
Guest
Thank you all again for your responses. There were many great points made and it seems that this post has generated lots of discussion, which I hope will be helpful to all others who are facing these issues and reading out there.
bardegaulois, you wrote:
**So what do you want to do? When you know that, do it. **
What if the only thing that a person truly wants to do is live out the vocation that God has placed in his or her heart? What if one feels like he/she has done everything that can be done alone? And what if it’s time to entertain the idea that there really is no path out there, and all one might have to look forward to is a lifetime of desolation? Single people (I like the other terms-- postmodern hermits, etc) can find themselves in a state of perpetual young adulthood, especially nowadays due to the lack of jobs in many fields and the high cost of living in many places. Many people do, in fact, spend their entire lives on earth in some form of desolation whether due to a lack of material resources or a lack of social interaction. Neither can simply “go out and get it”…I am American and I know that a firm belief in the ability to change one’s circumstances no matter what is very deeply rooted in our culture…I am also more and more aware as I get older that adhering to this belief in every case and forcing oneself to “think positive” may be a hindrance to the spiritual growth that comes from suffering and desolation…even for a lifetime. So I allowed myself to be ugly and miserable and in pain in my OP…because I know that I am not alone in feeling these things and I think that they are an important part of the spiritual journey.
I do agree that perhaps it is time to stop listening to the voices of the “pious well-wishers” and to focus more on listening to God instead. And to trust that the small ways of everyday giving are enough. If there is no call to join the Peace Corps or become a second mother right now, so be it. There may be in the future-- but that’s the future.
The only challenge that I pose right now is how we, as single laypeople (aka po-mo hermits
), might consider finding value and worth in our lives as they are right now, even if we never have a big mission or call to marriage or a long-term career or are never recognized for anything, even in the smallest way. I am only asking because I see the patterns: limited access to a living wage, increased socio-cultural stratification, the challenges that the Church faces in this day and age (especially with regards to the family). Many more will live lives of desolation. Not everyone will find a pot of gold here on earth. Not everyone will find a path. But there is a glimmer of hope in living this kind of life; one never loses sight of the fact that relative to spending eternity with God, all lives on earth are a relative state of desolation. In spite of what the American Dream/Baby Boomer values/narratives of progress tell us, we are not the way we are because we are not hard-working enough to “make it happen”. Many of us work very hard and serve others in small, everyday ways…and may do little more than that for the rest of our lives. How can we support one another without defaulting to the “eventually you’ll find your way” response (because many will not…and even for those who do it will not last forever)?
bardegaulois, you wrote:
**So what do you want to do? When you know that, do it. **
What if the only thing that a person truly wants to do is live out the vocation that God has placed in his or her heart? What if one feels like he/she has done everything that can be done alone? And what if it’s time to entertain the idea that there really is no path out there, and all one might have to look forward to is a lifetime of desolation? Single people (I like the other terms-- postmodern hermits, etc
) can find themselves in a state of perpetual young adulthood, especially nowadays due to the lack of jobs in many fields and the high cost of living in many places. Many people do, in fact, spend their entire lives on earth in some form of desolation whether due to a lack of material resources or a lack of social interaction. Neither can simply “go out and get it”…I am American and I know that a firm belief in the ability to change one’s circumstances no matter what is very deeply rooted in our culture…I am also more and more aware as I get older that adhering to this belief in every case and forcing oneself to “think positive” may be a hindrance to the spiritual growth that comes from suffering and desolation…even for a lifetime. So I allowed myself to be ugly and miserable and in pain in my OP…because I know that I am not alone in feeling these things and I think that they are an important part of the spiritual journey.I do agree that perhaps it is time to stop listening to the voices of the “pious well-wishers” and to focus more on listening to God instead. And to trust that the small ways of everyday giving are enough. If there is no call to join the Peace Corps or become a second mother right now, so be it. There may be in the future-- but that’s the future.
The only challenge that I pose right now is how we, as single laypeople (aka po-mo hermits
), might consider finding value and worth in our lives as they are right now, even if we never have a big mission or call to marriage or a long-term career or are never recognized for anything, even in the smallest way. I am only asking because I see the patterns: limited access to a living wage, increased socio-cultural stratification, the challenges that the Church faces in this day and age (especially with regards to the family). Many more will live lives of desolation. Not everyone will find a pot of gold here on earth. Not everyone will find a path. But there is a glimmer of hope in living this kind of life; one never loses sight of the fact that relative to spending eternity with God, all lives on earth are a relative state of desolation. In spite of what the American Dream/Baby Boomer values/narratives of progress tell us, we are not the way we are because we are not hard-working enough to “make it happen”. Many of us work very hard and serve others in small, everyday ways…and may do little more than that for the rest of our lives. How can we support one another without defaulting to the “eventually you’ll find your way” response (because many will not…and even for those who do it will not last forever)?
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BarbTh
Guest
I think you have found your way, but not recognised it as your particular way and call, vocation from God and hence value it. In other words, it is a problem of perspective and attitude on what is. I noticed that in your signature, you quote from St Therese of Lisieux - another one of her quotations is that it is not about doing much, but loving much. If one feels frustration and confusion about their call and vocation in life, they would certainly profit from spiritual direction.
Referring to your post in general, it is probably all about changing one’s perspective and attitude to what is the content of their journey at this point - and a new perspective and attitude can be far more productive and healing, cathartic, than one might recognise prior to seeking spiritual direction. You do write from the perspective of feelings and while they are important and as one’s experience - they are not a good guide to what actually is in Reality, in God’s terms.
Precisely and you have hit the nail right on the head…nailed it! God would not and does not ask of us the impossible. And tot trust in the small ways of everyday giving is very much the “Little Way” of St Therese of Lisieux.
As to what is going to happen in one’s future, only God alone knows that and one does need to invest in and trust in God alone.
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BarbTh
Guest
I do admit that I wonder if you might be striving to keep your points alive, without giving the suggestions in this thread a fair try? I don’t think that any of the points you have raised are unique and probably most all have experienced some or perhaps more of them - among those in the single celibate state anyway or even perhaps in other vocations too. I certainly have and some I still do. Rather than investing in discouragement and a sort of despair, one invests in God.
One can either throw up one’s hands in despair and frustration as one’s hopeless situations and journey, or one can set about seeking a response or responses that work, or solutions and answers. God never ever puts one in a hopeless situation, if one is experiencing hopelessness, then there is a solution that has not been found as yet…and wont be found if one is not actively investing in finding one. If one is stuck in mud, one either stays stuck in it, or finds a way out of it. And where God is concerned, and our own journey there IS a way out of difficult, even seemingly hopeless situations. It is a question of working with God, rather than against Him by investing in a sort of hopelessness.
It is a question of looking at life through worldly perspectives, or through God’s perspectives and our Catholic spiritual theology.
One can either throw up one’s hands in despair and frustration as one’s hopeless situations and journey, or one can set about seeking a response or responses that work, or solutions and answers. God never ever puts one in a hopeless situation, if one is experiencing hopelessness, then there is a solution that has not been found as yet…and wont be found if one is not actively investing in finding one. If one is stuck in mud, one either stays stuck in it, or finds a way out of it. And where God is concerned, and our own journey there IS a way out of difficult, even seemingly hopeless situations. It is a question of working with God, rather than against Him by investing in a sort of hopelessness.
It is a question of looking at life through worldly perspectives, or through God’s perspectives and our Catholic spiritual theology.
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Michael19682
Guest
Dear iwillrisenow,
You repeatedly use the term : desolation. Literally, that word means either “without light”, or “unlit”; perhaps even “with light obscured, darkened”. We know that there is light everywhere except in sin, and yet that too will be brought into the light by truth. I would suggest that anyone get some help with discerning the light, and learning to follow and live by what light can be seen. Remember the simile of light and salt, and the parable of the mustard seed. We need very little. If what we have is not enough, perhaps we should think about why we feel that way. You mentioned earlier that you had experienced aggression in regards to evangelizing through charity: the lord experienced aggression.
You also seem occupied with generating discussion. For what end is that discussion promoted? I have a feeling that it is other than for you to glean ideas from? I don’t know of any time the evangelists tell us that the lord was trying to generate discussion. People who generate discussion only, without stating honestly their purpose, such as when the lord asked pointed questions of certain people, are perhaps following an example of another philosophy whose direction and purpose may be well intentioned, but which do not give answers like Jesus can.
If you mean to generate discussion, you must be prepared to lead the discussion at some point. Dare I say that Jesus didn’t merely start discussion. He says this: “I will not leave you orphans.”
In your responses I see the words of someone who is probably not orphaned, but trying desperately to imagine oneself as orphaned. That is quite possibly the psychology of a runaway.
Praying for you.
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BarbTh
Guest
Continued from previous post located here : forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12389089&postcount=49
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BarbTh
Guest
Good post and above good point in particular - to my mind.
Quite possibly!
My prayers also.
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iwillrisenow
Guest
OK. I will step down from this thread now; others who are more experienced are welcome to take over and lead.
The purpose of this thread was to make space for those who are hurting to express that pain without being accused of being mentally ill or delusional. I tried to dissuade responses along the lines of “but that can’t be your situation” from the very beginning because I wanted to prevent all the typical responses that many of us get when we experience pain as people of faith. We’re just supposed to be able to pray it all away, right?
Of course I know all that you say…it’s easy to recite lines and post bible verses in bold…but the human experience does not fall so neatly into the silver lining moments that we so often encounter out of context. Life on this*** fallen earth*** is not life in heaven.
A post on a message board is not a static condition. It is an expression of the experiences of a person at a moment in time. Yes, there are feelings involved. No, we shouldn’t think of feelings as reflective of Truth…but we shouldn’t discount or suppress them either.
My final words: I just want anyone out there reading to know that it’s OK to have bad days, to not always see the light even if you know that it’s there. It’s OK to be human and imperfect. No matter what anyone on the internet says, your experiences are valid and you are loved.
The purpose of this thread was to make space for those who are hurting to express that pain without being accused of being mentally ill or delusional. I tried to dissuade responses along the lines of “but that can’t be your situation” from the very beginning because I wanted to prevent all the typical responses that many of us get when we experience pain as people of faith. We’re just supposed to be able to pray it all away, right?
Of course I know all that you say…it’s easy to recite lines and post bible verses in bold…but the human experience does not fall so neatly into the silver lining moments that we so often encounter out of context. Life on this*** fallen earth*** is not life in heaven.
A post on a message board is not a static condition. It is an expression of the experiences of a person at a moment in time. Yes, there are feelings involved. No, we shouldn’t think of feelings as reflective of Truth…but we shouldn’t discount or suppress them either.
My final words: I just want anyone out there reading to know that it’s OK to have bad days, to not always see the light even if you know that it’s there. It’s OK to be human and imperfect. No matter what anyone on the internet says, your experiences are valid and you are loved.
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Michael19682
Guest
The above quote exemplifies leadership. Synopsis, conclusion drawn from discussion, direction and hope. Very well done! Very valid lessons!
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Michael19682
Guest
Thanks for the encouragement!
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BarbTh
Guest
You are most welcome - I have read some quite helpful things in the unfolding of this thread for my own journey and some from your own posts.
Barb
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BarbTh
Guest
It is ok to be quite human and imperfect and to have bad days, because imperfect and weak is exactly what we are and bad days are going to come along regularly most often I suspect - mine do. We have The Sacrament of Reconciliation if our imperfection and failings get too much for us and we are experiencing a load of guilt. Unload the guilt in The Sacrament and then begin again as if nothing had happened. If others are anything like me, they are back in Confession with the same old problems and before too long at all. My thoughts are is that Jesus knew our nature and just how imperfect and weak we are - and always will be - which is why The Sacrament of Reconciliation is not a once-of only…we can go as often as we need throughout our life and journey. Indeed we are loved and the proof of His Love is all around us - if we only open our eyes…and heart. We are asked to be Perfect as Our Heavenly Father is Perfect. And He is Perfect in His Faithfulness, His Love, Mercy and Compassion for ALL He created.
There is a beautiful Truth that St Therese insighted and brought to our attention. The weaker and more imperfect one is and recognizing it humbly, the more God embraces one.
There some beautiful lines in Psalms 50:
drbo.org/chapter/21050.htm
I don’t think that we should discount the inspiration of The Holy Sprit that Scripture actually is as having no relevance to our journey and life in the here and now.
Nor should we discount prayer either! Jesus prayed ardently for deliverance from His Own Sufferings to come - but He was not delivered. “Not My Will, but Thine be done”, which ideally is always at the heart of our own prayer.
These Truths can be discounted as merely pious platitudes and would be nothing more than ONE perspective and attitude - and wrongly, very wrongly to my mind. A big mistake indeed not at all in line with what The Church teaches.
- Status