Sirach 18: 1?

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Why are there different translations for Sirach 18: 1?

Thanks!
 
im not sure what verse your refering to, but some translations of Sirach are based on the Greek, some are Hebrew, but we dont have the Hebrew for all of Sirach
 
It is chapter 18 of Sirach. It is the first verse in chapter 18 of Sirach.

It deals with how God created. Was it simultaneous, together or in common?

Thanks!
 
Jim_Baur said:
It is chapter 18 of Sirach. It is the first verse in chapter 18 of Sirach.

It deals with how God created. Was it simultaneous, together or in common?

Thanks!
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I assume you have read these 3 phrases in different translations, but I am not seeing a strong difference in the meaning.
 
Jim_Baur said:
Why are there different translations for Sirach 18: 1?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
I think I see what you mean. Sirach 18:1-2 in the Catholic RSV says: “He who lives for ever created the whole universe. The Lord alone will be declared righteous.”

But the New American Bible Sirach 18:1 reads: “The Eternal is the judge of all things without exception; the LORD alone is just.”

Read it like this to see the differences more clearly: “He who lives for ever”/“The Eternal” – “created”/“is judge of” – “the whole universe”/“all things without exception.” – “The Lord alone”/“the LORD alone” – “will be declared righteous”/“is just.”

There are two main differences: (1) the RSV uses the verb “created” while the NAB uses the verb phrase “is judge of,” and (2) the RSV calls “the whole universe” what the NAB calls “all things without exception.”

#2 is easy. There are probably two Hebrew/Greek words used in this one verse that both refer to completeness or entirety, such that it is saying “All, really ALL things.” The translators chose to express this differently: the RSV uses two English words that both refer to completeness or entirety, “whole” and “creation,” and connected them together. The NAB, on the other hand, sees that the original author intended to emphasize the completeness by using two words to express it; so they make it clearer that EVERYTHING is being referred to: “all things without exception.” Really, though, the two phrases mean the same thing: the NAB’s “all things” is a synonym for the RSV’s “the universe,” and the RSV’s “the whole” is a synonym for the NAB’s “without exception.”

#1 probably is just a difference in opinion among the various translators about the meaning of the Greek/Hebrew words. The NAB translators thought that the Greek/Hebrew word means “judge,” while the RSV translators thought it means “create.” No biggy there.

I hope that helps. God bless!
-Dmar198
 
[Sirach 18]

{18:1} Qui vivet in æternum, creavit omnia simul. Deus solus iustificabitur, et manet invictus Rex in æternum.
{18:1} The One who dwells in eternity created all things together. God alone will be justified, and he remains an invincible King for eternity.
 
You guys are really good, thanks!

I will be watching if others add to this thread.

Again, thanks!

Thanks!

Thanks!

If I have understood,

it is saying that God created all things from eternity.

And that He created all things at the same time.

Is this correct?

Again, thanks!
 
Jim_Baur said:
You guys are really good, thanks!

I will be watching if others add to this thread.

Again, thanks!

Thanks!

Thanks!

If I have understood,

it is saying that God created all things from eternity.

And that He created all things at the same time.

Is this correct?

Again, thanks!
Click to expand...
By “from eternity,” do you mean to conclude that eternity is the substance of all creation? Because that’s not correct. God IS eternal, The Eternal, and God created the universe from nothing.

“at the same time” is not correct nuance of translation either, IMO, insofar as that might be construed to contradict the timeline we are given in Genesis. The emphasis here is that all things in the ENTIRE UNIVERSE were created by God, not on how or when.
 
Jim_Baur said:
You guys are really good, thanks!

I will be watching if others add to this thread.

Again, thanks!

Thanks!

Thanks!

If I have understood,

it is saying that God created all things from eternity.

And that He created all things at the same time.

Is this correct?

Again, thanks!
Click to expand...
We are required to believe that God created the universe out of nothing.
We are not required to believe that the universe and everything in it was created at exactly the same time.
 
I have a …Complete Parallel Bible, which is four translations of each verse, side by side across two pages, two columns to a page. I use it to fathom the meaning of a verse, maybe these translations from the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), the Revised English Bible (REB), New American Bible (NAB) and New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) will help you.

NRSV
Sirach 18, 1 “He who lives forever created the whole universe; 2. the Lord alone is just.”

REB
Sirach 18, 1 “He who lives forever is the Creator of the whole universe; 2. the Lord alone will be proved supreme.”

NAB
Sirach 18, 1 “The Eternal is the judge of all things without exception; the Lord alone is just.”

NJB
Sirach 18, 1 “He who lives forever has created the sum of things; 2. the Lord alone will be found just.”
 
Jim_Baur said:
Why are there different translations for Sirach 18: 1?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Oh, Jim -

Apologies. I read the thread and hopped in, forgetting your question.

The reason there are different translations to Sirach 18, 1 is because there are different translations to the Holy Bible. Now, why are there different translations to the Holy Bible?

In the context of history, where the Vulgate served our church for over 1,000 years in the one translation, and the subsequent DRB served us well from the late 15th Century through the early 20th Century, and other translations were primarily for scholars…even the KJV served the Protestants from the 16th Century to the early 20th Century…

I don’t know why, in the 20th Century, there was any need for other translations. All the archaeological and linguistic finds since the early 20th Century, all that knowledge, hasn’t really changed the meaning in the Holy Bible. Although, application of that knowledge has harmed some traditions, I think.

But, other than a hidden agenda, I can’t see any sound reason for the plethora of translations available to the Holy Bible. It just seems to scatter the faithful; some going by this Bible, some going by that Bible, some going by other Bible, etc. I don’t see much good, in that.

I keep my DRB stowed away, in my ‘go-bag’, in case of an emergency I pick up the bag and go…it has what I don’t want to lose and gear to survive a few days in a communal shelter.

Don
 
NAB
Sirach 18, 1 “The Eternal is the judge of all things without exception; the Lord alone is just.”

The New American Bible does not mention creation, nor does it mention creating all at the same time.

This is still the major part of my confusion.

Thanks!
 
Genesis 1: 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The Word is clearly the Beginning. And the Word became flesh.

Genesis 2: 4 These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Isaiah 30: 26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

{18:1} Qui vivet in æternum, creavit omnia simul. Deus solus iustificabitur, et manet invictus Rex in æternum.
{18:1} The One who dwells in eternity created all things together. God alone will be justified, and he remains an invincible King for eternity.

These, to me, all seem to go together. The Word is eternal and created all things at the same time or in common (“koine”) or all at once.

I am thinking out loud.

Thanks for your continued help!
 
Jim_Baur said:
These, to me, all seem to go together. The Word is eternal and created all things at the same time or in common (“koine”) or all at once.
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God is beyond time, so any act of God is also, in a sense, beyond time, even if the act occurs at a particular point in time (from our point of view).

In the book of Genesis, God’s creative act is described as being distributed over a number of acts of different types at different times. So, no, I don’t think it is correct to conclude that all things were created at the same time, or all at once.
 
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