Situation of Hell and Heaven

[Cabeelibob]

Just a topic for discussion.
Heard my pastor talk about this a while (some years) ago. Keep in mind that I may be taking this out of context as I may not remember clearly.
Let’s say that a person dies in a state of mortal sin, but their conscience is sorry that they are not sorry.
Is this a misunderstanding of mortal sin?
Do you think that this person can be saved?
I realize that nothing is impossible for God.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

their conscience is sorry that they are not sorry.

If they are sorry for not being sorry then this to me indicates that there is some remorse for the sin. In other words, they are actually sorry to some degree.

Many of us have done things that we have mixed feelings about. Often we have to just accept the Church teaching that something is wrong even though it might not feel wrong to us or we might not fully understand the teaching. For example, if somebody insulted my mother, I might punch them, and if I did that I might not feel sorry because I was defending my mother whom I love. But I would have to accept that Church teaching says you answer evil with good and you shouldn’t react to an insult with violence, so I did sin. In that case I would be thinking something like, "God, I’m sorry I broke your commandment and was less than a perfect Christian, but I must admit it’s hard for me to be sorry that I punched that person because they really had it coming. " God would likely understand that I had the underlying desire to please him but I got overwhelmed by human emotion. So I think this is the type of flaw that would send us to Purgatory, not to Hell.

 

[Vico]

Just a topic for discussion.
Heard my pastor talk about this a while (some years) ago. Keep in mind that I may be taking this out of context as I may not remember clearly.
Let’s say that a person dies in a state of mortal sin, but their conscience is sorry that they are not sorry.
Is this a misunderstanding of mortal sin?
Do you think that this person can be saved?
I realize that nothing is impossible for God.

That is attrition. You state that the person is not sorry for the mortal sin, the person is sorry that there will be hell to pay, which is good but insufficient. Council of Trent, Sess. XIV, i:

And as to that imperfect contrition which is called attrition, because it is commonly conceived either from the consideration of the turpitude of sin, or from the fear of hell and of punishment, the council declares that if with the hope of pardon, it excludes the wish to sin, it not only does not make man a hypocrite and a greater sinner, but that it is even a gift of God, and an impulse of the Holy Spirit, who does not indeed as yet dwell in the penitent, but who only moves him whereby the penitent, being assisted, prepares a way for himself unto justice, and although this attrition cannot of itself, without the Sacrament of Penance, conduct the sinner to justification yet does it dispose him to receive the grace of God in the Sacrament of Penance. For smitten profitably with fear, the Ninivites at the preaching of Jonas did fearful penance and obtained mercy from Lord.

 

[Beryllos]

Let’s say that a person dies in a state of mortal sin, but their conscience is sorry that they are not sorry.

It depends on why they are sorry that they are not sorry. As the previous poster said, sorrow due to the punishment is not sufficient.

Let’s go back to basics: Love God. Love one another. What kind of sorrow would include love?

Perhaps one could be sorry for offending God, but not sorry for the act which was committed because the act was not understood as evil. In this case, we should reexamine whether the act is a mortal sin. We loosely speak of certain acts as mortal sins when it is more accurate to say they are grave acts. The mortality depends on two factors besides gravity, that is, knowledge and consent.

Similarly one could be sorry for harming another person, but not sorry for the act which led to the harm.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Perhaps one could be sorry for offending God, but not sorry for the act which was committed because the act was not understood as evil.

I think this is very common. There are many moral laws of the church that do not always make sense to the individual. There are also many acts that are considered gravely sinful but may produce some positive effects for the individual. For example, someone has sexual relations that constitute fornication or adultery forbidden by the Church, but they’re doing it out of mutual love for their partner and perhaps they even beget a child whom they love. They may eventually end the relationship and realize it is sinful and even be sorry for offending God, but it is hard to be sorry for the fact that you genuinely loved someone else who helped you grow as a person, and that you continue to love your child. God brings some good things out of evil sometimes, though this doesn’t mean you should think it’s okay to commit sins. This is a very difficult concept for people to grasp so you usually see people painting the earthly consequences of sin as being very bad. The reality is often a much more mixed picture.

I think being sorry at heart for offending God, like the prostitute in the story, is sufficient repentance even if you aren’t certain about your sorrow for every single act or it’s mixed with some positive effect (maybe the prostitute’s customers were kind to her and that was the only kindness she knew; maybe it was the only way she could get something to eat and she obviously wasn’t sorry she got some food).

 

[HOMM]

Do you think that this person can be saved?
I realize that nothing is impossible for God.

I love theological questions!

You’ve seemed to answer your own question, because indeed, nothing is impossible for God, and the answer the understanding of Mortal Sin by you, I, or others does not matter.

What matters is the mercy and righteousness exercised by God at the Particular Judgment (if we depart this life before the Second Coming).

In cases like this, I like to exercise the 3 theological virtues of Faith, Hope, and Charity.

I have Faith that God’s judgment and mercy will be righteous.

I have Hope that for the sake of the individual’s soul, God’s righteous justice nd mercy will save them, and that their own lack of humility and contrition will not impede that.

I have Charity for the soul’s of other, and through both Faith and Hope, leave their salvation into the hands of God, without making my own judgment.

 

[Vico]

…
I have Hope that for the sake of the individual’s soul, God’s righteous justice [a]nd mercy will save them, and that their own lack of humility and contrition will not impede that.
…

We do have the dogmas 1) that not all will be saved, and 2) damnation is freely chosen, and 3) salvation is freely chosen.

 

[HOMM]

We do have the dogmas 1) that not all will be saved, and 2) damnation is freely chosen, and 3) salvation is freely chosen.

undoubtedly, but we also leave the decision to God, and we as a Church pray for the souls of the deceased, not to judge them or second guess God’s righteous judgment, but because we are called to be concerned for others.

 

[Vico]

…
undoubtedly, but we also leave the decision to God, and we as a Church pray for the souls of the deceased, not to judge them or second guess God’s righteous judgment, but because we are called to be concerned for others.

Yes. Even so, their own lack of humility and contrition will impede their salvation because God is just as well as merciful and respects our free will.

Catechism

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27

 

[Latin]

We do have the dogmas 1) that not all will be saved, and 2) damnation is freely chosen, and 3) salvation is freely chosen.

You said Vico: Not all will be saved. – Yes, those who are not predestined to heaven by an absolute decree they are not saved.

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According to the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Predestination of the elect not all will be saved.

PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment.
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For the absolute predestination of the blessed is at the same time the ABSOLUTE will of God "NOT TO ELECT" a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, "to EXCLUDE them from heaven" (Gonet), in other words, NOT to save them.

Predestination | Catholic Answers Encyclopedia

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According to the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence all will be saved.

This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).

It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, Hom. xxviii in Matt, n. 3 in; P.G., LVII, 354).

That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm

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You said Vico: Damnation is freely chosen.

God has freely chosen our damnation at that point when He has freely chosen to design/ plan a system when we all born condemned and if God does not predestines us to heaven we will stay condemned for all eternity. – Plain and simple DE FIDE Dogma.

Rom.5:18; As by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

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You said Vico: Salvation is freely chosen. – Yes, our salvation is freely chosen by God.

John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.

2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man.

God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. … (Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3).

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CCCS 1996-1998; Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.

https://www.catholicity.com/catechism/justification.html
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God bless

 

[meltzerboy2]

OP, your last sentence says it all.

 

[Cabeelibob]

What do you think of this statement. Not my opinion per-say, just food for thought.
It is very hard to commit a mortal sin because no reasonable person would do such a thing if they knew how serious it was.

 

[Vico]

…

God has universal salvic will which is the sufficient grace, but in the particular person (efficient grace) it is not universal. Good allows us free will to choose and does not choose for us.

The grace give by God makes it possible for us to freely choose salvation. When we choose to cooperate with it then we are saved and it is called efficacious grace, when a person chooses not to cooperate with it then it is called merely sufficient grace. The dogma states that that:

• The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistable. (De fide.)

Double predestination is condemned by the Catholic church.

As stated in the Catechism

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. …

620 Cf. Council of Orange II (529)S 397; Council of Trent (1547):1567.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm

 

[Elf01]

What do you think of this statement. Not my opinion per-say, just food for thought.
It is very hard to commit a mortal sin because no reasonable person would do such a thing if they knew how serious it was.

The risks of smoking for example are well known yet people still start.

 

[Latin]

In your above post Vico, No. 13, practically there are three subjects.

MY ANSWERS

FIRST: Sufficient grace according to Molinist teachings.

In Molinism God provides only sufficient grace, if someone rejects them the graces stays sufficient and the receiver goes to hell.

If the receiver cooperates with them, the graces become efficacious and the receiver goes to heaven.
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For those who doesn’t really familiar with the Scripture and Catholic Soteriology the above statements seems logical, but it is not logical for many reasons, for example:

God cannot Govern the human race, the will of the imperfect human race governs the will of the Perfect God, my will not God’s will prevails.

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The answer of the Scripture and Catholic Soteriology to the above statement.

John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.

2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man.

God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. … (Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3).

CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
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As we see above Vico, the Scripture and Catholic Soteriology DOES NOT agree with the Molinist’s theory of salvation.

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SECOND: Efficacious graces are resistible.

In the MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION John Salza

Hence, a sufficient grace has an operating effect only

whereas an efficacious grace has both an operating and cooperating effect (applying the will to act).
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This means that when God wills a person to perform a salutary act (e.g., prayer, good works), He grants him the means (an efficacious grace) that infallibly produces the end (the act willed by God).

If God wills to permit a person to resist His grace, He grants him a sufficient, and not an efficacious, grace.

FOR EXAMPLE
John Salza, Page 113: However, the Church teaches that God infused Adam with sufficient grace to resist temptation and to perform his duties with charity.

God, however, willed to permit Adam to reject His grace and to sin. End quote.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains the above reason.

Evil He converts into good and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;
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As we see above, with sufficient and efficacious graces God perfectly governs the entire human race. - In Molinism God is not able to govern the human race.

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THIRD: You said Vico: God predestined no one to go to hell, for go to hell need to die in mortal sin.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Predestination of the elect says;
For the absolute predestination of the blessed is at the same time the ABSOLUTE will of God NOT TO ELECT a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, to EXCLUDE them from heaven(Gonet), in other words, NOT to save them.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

…

It is not necessary to have a particular explanation but rather to assent to the dogmas of the Catholic church on these issues.

Yes, God has the permissive will to allow a person to choose freely, so does not force on that person damnation.

The opinion of Suarez is, according to Catholic Encyclopedia you referred to, is not in harmony with dogma:

Whatever view one may take regarding the internal probability of negative reprobation, it cannot be harmonized with the dogmatically certain universality and sincerity of God’s salvific will. or the absolute predestination of the blessed is at the same time the absolute will of God “not to elect” a priori the rest of mankind Suarez),…
Francisco Suárez labours in the sweat of his brow to safeguard the sincerity of God’s salvific will, even towards those who are reprobated negatively. But in vain.

 

[Latin]

In context of your second excerpt Vico as follows:

Francisco Suárez labours in the sweat of his brow to safeguard the sincerity of God’s salvific will, even towards those who are reprobated negatively. But in vain. How can that will to save be called serious and sincere which has decreed from all eternity the metaphysical impossibility of salvation?
He who has been reprobated negatively, may exhaust all his efforts to attain salvation: it avails him nothing.
Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to take care that they die in their sins.

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Let’s see THE MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION by John Salza on the above subject:

Page 4; Although God grants man both sufficient and efficacious graces, He grants the efficacious grace of perseverance only to His elect. End quote.
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(I’m sure Vico you know, without God’s undeserved gift of efficacious grace of perseverance everyone ends up in hell, this is an Infallible teachings of the Trent and Formal teachings of the Catholic Church.)

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Page 121; Fr. Most identifies the metaphysical issue as follows:

Sufficient grace gives man the potency to do good, but do not give the application.

For the application efficacious grace is required to move him from potency to act.

Therefore, sufficient grace is insufficient to move him to act. End quote.

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Page 77; When God wills a person to perform a salutary act (e.g., prayer, good works), He grants him the means (an efficacious grace) that infallibly produces the end (the act willed by God).

If God wills to permit a person to resist His grace, He grants him a sufficient, and not an efficacious grace [11].

[11]; As we have seen, God wills to permit the elect to resist sufficient grace to spiritually heal them. ST, Pt I-II, Q 79, Art 4.

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FOR EXAMPLE
Page 113: However, the Church teaches that God infused Adam with sufficient grace to resist temptation and to perform his duties with charity.
God, however, willed to permit Adam to reject His grace and to sin. End quote.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains the above reason.

Evil He converts into good and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children.

Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, Enchir, xi in P.L. LX, 236; Serm.
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THE SAME PRINCIPLE APPLIES TO US AS WELL

When God wills to permit us to reject His grace and to sin (for the reason of our spiritual healing as explained above) He grants us a sufficient grace, when God wills not to permit us an act of sin, He provides us an efficacious grace and we every time infallibly reject the temptation of sin.
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With the provisions of sufficient and efficacious graces God perfectly Governs/ controls the entire human race, even our walking on the road to sainthood and heaven.

The CONCLUSIVE DEFECT of Molinism, God is not able to govern/ control the human race.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

…

None of the theories are without difficulties. We are not required to accept any such theories, but rather to assent to the dogmas of the Church. We know that the dogmas show that mankind has free will and that applies to both those saved and those condemned, for in addition to actual grace, free will cooperation with grace is required, and we know that God has universal salvic will but that some are not saved due to free choice not to cooperate with grace. The choice to cooperate with grace is necessary for without it there is no free will.

Catechism

1742 Freedom and grace. The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials, such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world. By the working of grace the Holy Spirit educates us in spiritual freedom in order to make us free collaborators in his work in the Church and in the world:

Almighty and merciful God,
in your goodness take away from us all that is harmful,
so that, made ready both in mind and body,
we may freely accomplish your will.38

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response , for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. …