So-called "Bad" Popes

[1ke]

I was always taught that our sins separate us from God until we repent and confess them to Him. Don’t we have to repent to God in order to receive God’s grace and forgiveness? Otherwise, what is the purpose of going to Reconciliation if God forgives us no matter what? Perhaps I misunderstood your statement. If I did, my apologies.

I think we are talking about slightly different things. Yes, grave sin separates us from God and confession brings us back into relationship from God.

In the prior post it sounded like you were saying that God would withhold “blessings” meaning material things-- like Alexander VI wouldn’t have been rich, or prominent, or a Cardinal, or Pope if he had sinned. That God would only “favor” or “bless” someone in his favor. Like good things would happen to good people and bad things to bad people. That’s the “health and wealth gospel” and it’s false.

That’s what I was saying doesn’t work that way. Bad people can be rich, famous, successful, looked up to. Good people can be poor, have calamities, and a hard time. And vice versa.

I’m also not actually saying Alexander VI was “bad”. I don’t think he was. He certainly wasn’t “evil”. I think he made some bad choices. I think he lived as a worldly prince of the day would live.

You seem to be assuming that he was never contrite for his out of wedlock children-- but this is only an assumption, In fact I’d wager he certainly did go to confession and confess his sins. Nepotism isn’t the best idea in the world, but it isn’t actually sinful either. Certainly not grave matter.

Aren’t God’s people, especially the leader of the flock, supposed to be a cut above the norm from a spiritual and moral perspective? After all, he’s the one holding the keys to the kingdom according to Catholicism, if I understand correctly.

Yes, they certainly should. But, from the beginning God’s chosen have been falling down on the job from time to time-- because they are human. To expect them to be perfect is not realistic. To expect them to always resist temptation, know the right thing to do, and do it is unrealistic.

Yes they hold the keys. The protection from teaching error is a negative charism. It means they won’t teach error. It doesn’t mean they “will” teach anything at all. It doesn’t mean they will be a good example. It doesn’t make them immune from sin. The power of the keys is a supernatural one, put in place by God to protect the Church from the people who make it up. Because people are fallible. God is not.

 

[PluniaZ]

I haven’t studied the time when there were two competing popes (one in Rome and one in France), but I will assume that was short-lived and didn’t do any damage to doctrine or the basic tenets of the Church, correct?

Pope Urban VI was validly elected Pope in Rome in 1378, and then the French, who controlled the College of Cardinals and were used to dominating the papacy in Avignon for the past 70 years, rebelled, electing anti-Pope Clement VII back in Avignon.

It was simply a rebellion against the lawful Pope, much like the Germans rebelled 140 years later.

newadvent.org/cathen/15216a.htm

 

[TARRAT]

To my knowledge none of those popes taught any heresy. They may have sinned (as we all have) but they were not heretics and preserved the teachings of the Church, even though they didn’t live exemplary lives.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I tried googling the author’s name to see if I could find out a little about him.
He has written many books. I could not find a bio of him so I don’t know if he is
Catholic.

 

[e_c]

I haven’t studied the time when there were two competing popes (one in Rome and one in France), but I will assume that was short-lived and didn’t do any damage to doctrine or the basic tenets of the Church, correct?

There was one time when there were 3 - and saints famously came down on different sides! Thankfully, the election process is much clearer now.

Note Peter’s moral failure that Paul corrects him on… Harsh words for the Pope from St. Paul! But the authority of the office is not a function of the holiness of the person who occupies it, no more than the authority of a duly appointed legislator is dependent upon his criminal background. All authority comes from God, after all, including worldly governments… See Paul’s treatment of paying taxes to Nero.

 

[Tommy999]

i think we are talking about slightly different things. Yes, grave sin separates us from god and confession brings us back into relationship from god.

In the prior post it sounded like you were saying that god would withhold “blessings” meaning material things-- like alexander vi wouldn’t have been rich, or prominent, or a cardinal, or pope if he had sinned. That god would only “favor” or “bless” someone in his favor. Like good things would happen to good people and bad things to bad people. That’s the “health and wealth gospel” and it’s false.

That’s what i was saying doesn’t work that way. Bad people can be rich, famous, successful, looked up to. Good people can be poor, have calamities, and a hard time. And vice versa. .

Hi 1ke,
Thanks for expounding on what you meant. I think I understand your points better now. They make sense.

By the way, I am not a “health and wealth” gospel person, or at least I don’t think I am. I know good people who have had more than their share of bad things happen to them both in health and wealth (or lack thereof) and I know some suspected scoundrels who have done ok, by worldly standards. My older brother died in a freak car accident several years ago, and he followed Jesus more closely than I ever will.

However, I think – in general terms – that those who follow the Lord and His precepts tend to be healthier. For example, Daniel in the Bible. Daniel 1:12-15. His holy and moral lifestyle prompted him to not eat meat previously offered to idols and he ate vegetables instead. As a result, he became healthier and more fit than those around him.

Ever since I made the decision to give 10% of my net income to the Lord, I’ve become a better steward of my finances as a result of having to get by with less. I also think God has influenced my work ethic in a positive way that helps me financially.

I’ve learned from Christian mentors and folks like Clark Howard (not sure if he is a believer or not) how to manage my money better, and I’ve done Ok financially, although I am not rich by any means.

I also realize I could get hit by a bus tomorrow or the stock market could tank and I could lose a lot of money. I don’t have control over these things, but I can put myself in the best position I can, with God’s help.

 

[Tommy999]

Thanks to all whose insights have helped me put this issue in proper focus. It is no longer an obstacle. Much appreciated.

 

[PJM]

Tommy999:

Background:
I am not Catholic bashing. On the contrary, I am an inquirer who is currently discerning whether to enter RCIA. In my discernment process, I have gone through phases of discovery and evaluation where some Catholic doctrines and beliefs that were puzzling or foreign to me all of a sudden clicked and made total sense, while also at times I wonder if some of the bad stuff could potentially be a show-stopper for me unless I have a good explanation for why they happened or why God allowed it to happen.

Tommy: I edited the Bad stuff out, NOT that it may well not be true, & I suspect it may me; but for space

I’d like to at least attempt to answer your questions

Question:
Assuming the facts in the book are correct, how do Catholics explain or defend the evidence that God doesn’t always ensure that the supreme leader of the Catholic Church is the “cream of the crop” when it OPQ

The answer to this 1st part is found in the seemingly contradictory Gen. 1:26-28 compared to Jn. 4:23-24

We are taught that GOD freely choose to create humanity [alone] in His very image. Then John tells us clearly that “God IS A SPIRIT”; so how then does mortal man emulate GOD?

The short answer is that God GIFTS every human Soul [exclusively] a mind, intellect and a FREEWILL. Each of which like God are immortal and Spiritual realities.
These Popes cannot be “defend” nor should one even attempt to do so. In TRUTH, evil IS EVIL.

God’s promised PROTECTION does not override mortal men’ propensity to sin. NO! What the Holy Spirit DOES promise is to protect HIS One True Church and Faith from OFFICIALLY teaching errors on All matters of Faith and or Morals. {Pope Francis and AL are a separate conversation}

None of the Popes indicated are accused of TEACHING Catholic Faith or Morals against the Catholic Magisterium [THE ORDINARY TEACHING AUTHORITY OF THE RCC] and therefore GOD Himself. Although there have been a couple so charged; BOTH of whom recanted their position before they died.

Doesn’t God take His blessings away from such a person who so blatantly disregards the Lord’s moral code, or at least until he repents contritely and seeks reconciliation?

At LEAST FIVE of the Original 12 Apostles are biblically recorded to have been SINNERS:

Peter: Who actually DENIED the Christ out of FEAR of personal safety FOR A TIME

Judas: Who gave Jesus up for 30-pieces of silver

Thomas: Doubting Thomas

& the brothers John and James, who sought favorite places “in Thee Kingdom” [PRIDE & GREED]

Yet Jesus OFFERED each of them sufficient GRACE to Repent and RE-CONVERT. FOUR of the Five did exactly that. And Jesus PERSOANLLY offered Judas that opportunity, which Judas FREELY choose to reject, as he despaired and self -condemned himself as far as WE know.

And 4 of the five went on to be long-suffering and effective evangelist; and Peter the 1st Pope.

Is it a, “Boys will be boys” kind of defense?

The answer id BOTH “yes” & “No”
HOW”S THAT?

God in order to be GOD in an absolute sense MUST permit every HUMAN soul the opportunity to choose for themselves Eternal hell or Heaven, by virtue of the reality of “man’s” Spiritual other self”…. Mind, intellect and freewill.

God cannot [an impossibility] GIFT humanity with the singular ability to choose for themselves WHERE we will spend Eternity. Isa. 43: 7 &21; Ecc. 15:18; & Rom. 8:6, and then NOT permit them the very GIFTS granted precisely so that it is MAN”S choice, NOT God’s; 1st Tim. 2:4

So God does not DIRECTLY impede MAN”S sinning; BUT DOES protect His One True Churches Faith & Morals Teachings.

FURTHER: GOD commits Himself to OFFERING every HUMAN soul sufficient Grace so that every soul can, could & should, REPENT and Convert. Isa. 55:6-8

Was the moral bar set so low during their era of history?

**Tommy, Such is an impossibility **

I personally think it’s like when there were some bad kings in Israel in the OT and some of their behavior was so bad that God allowed some bad things to happen to God’s people, but that God always provided forgiveness and a way of escape and protection if they turned to Him.

That a good insight.

I think modern popes have been very good overall, by the way, and I have admired the ones in my lifetime

.
With One MAYBE even two SAINTS in our lifetime.

All insights are appreciated

Tommy, it is my prayerful hope that these concerns are not sufficient to impede or even to slow down the PROGRESS you ARE making.

May the HS CONTINUE to guide your faith-journey. Be ever mindful my friend, that TRUTH can be nothing bit SINGULAR per defined issue:thumbsup:

If you have other issues you’d care to discuss PLEASE let me know.

Patrick