So called "Christian/Catholic Fundamentalist Checklist"

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morning_star_27

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Hello all! First of all, I would like to make clear that I am a Roman Catholic. I hate it when people try to generalize my beliefs into something that means to be offensive. Hence, this “checklist” I’ve found on a Axis of Justice forum. I found it as I was looking at Rock For Life.com and it’s Pro-Life and Pro-Abortion organizations. AOJ just happened to be the latter. Forgive me if this leaves you as outraged as it left me. I’m a strong opponent against anti-Catholicism, and I do not endorse these comments.
 
OK, since I fancy myself nearly unoffendable (except of course when it suits my purpose) I’ll see what I can do with them.

To me it looks like an indictment of Fundies more directly than Catholicism, but I’ll take them on one at a time.
10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
Yep. That’s because we’re right and you’re wrong.

We don’t always feel outraged, though. Sometimes we fell pity that they don’t know what they’re missing.
9 - You feel insulted and “dehumanized” when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
Interesting point. I’m going to use that next time I get into an argument with a rabid Fundy about evolution. Kansas is recognized internationally as the capitol of stupidity on the evolution issue, and I have personally worked alongside those Fundies and found out what it’s like to be a politician. When a woman is as ridiculous as one was, but she is bringing me free campaign yard signs, I’m kind of ambivalent about being on the same team. You really can’t appreciate politics until you’ve seen a glimpse from the inside.

Good thing the Catholic Church doesn’t put God into the same box that Fundies do, and require that Genesis be interpreted literally.

Of course man is made from dirt. That’s where the minerals are, which feed the plants, which we and other animals eat, and then we eat the animals. Not only are we made from dirt but we are sustained our whole lives by stuff we get out of dirt.
8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
We admit the Trinity is a mystery. Besides, we don’t laugh at polytheists, we condemn them. (just kidding)
7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the “atrocities” attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in “Exodus” and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” including women, children, and trees!
We don’t have any problem with Allah, but with the stuff that idiots do in His name. I’ve known people who believed in Allah who do not condone atrocities committed whether on His behalf or not.

Besides, God was killing bad guys. The Allah fanatics were killing us. What more reason do we need to turn purple? Many of us turned blue and stiff because of them.
6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
Guilty as charged.
5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
If this is what I think it is, I fully agree. I once took the first few lessons of a non-denominational correspondence Bible study, and they were convinced of this thing where the entire earth was going to be 7000 years. It had some parallel to God creating the earth in 7 days, combined with “a day is like a thousand years.” Until that point, I thought I was learning a great deal from the Bible study. When I got to that, I found they were stretching logic well beyond its breaking point.

I think that was called the Worldwide Church of God or something, headed up by some dude that did a lot of ambassador work. He started a college called ambassador I think.

This is a Catholic, completely agreeing with this sentiment that is against Fundies, but I know very few Catholics who believe in the second assertion, and the first assertion is not doctrinal although many people may think that personally.
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4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs – though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving.”
No way. We have sufficient weasel words to get around it. Those who are not against Jesus are for Him.
3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to “prove” Christianity.
I answered an altar call at a non-denominational Church once and learned what they meant about speaking in tongues. It’s nothing like this showy stuff. Good thing once I had some clue about the matter, I was pleased we don’t see that kind of silliness in Catholicism.
2 - You define 0.01% as a “high success rate” when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
That’s actually a very good point, and I just might start a thread on it. I see a bit of a flaw, though. One could always throw in the “faith” wildcard and say it depends on your faith, but I think the answer is probably much more interesting than that.
1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
Many Catholics are like that.

Nothing wrong with that.

Which is a better Christian, the Protestant who quotes all Bible verses, but then flips off a driver for blocking the road because he is almost later for church? Or is it the Catholic who can’t find a Bible book without using the table of contents but stops to help the person in trouble rather than zooming around him, often at his own expense?

Hypocrites who use intellectual knowledge of the Bible to measure Christianity should come up with a quiz on Bible trivia. If you pass the quiz you’re saved. If you fail you’re not. That way we can do God’s work and get all the judging done so He doesn’t have to.

Why did you think this was anti-Catholic? It sounds a bit anti-Christian mostly geared toward Fundies to me. If those bashing don’t know the difference, then they are just spewing more of what they say they despise – nonsense.

Alan
 
quote=AlanFromWichita
That’s actually a very good point, and I just might start a thread on it. I see a bit of a flaw, though. One could always throw in the “faith” wildcard and say it depends on your faith, but I think the answer is probably much more interesting than that.

Alan

[/quote]

Hey there, Alan! :tiphat:

With regard to the .01% success rate of prayer…I beg to differ with your response here.

The actual success rate is 100%. The .01% is probably attributed to those prayers ‘answered in a way the person wanted it to be answered’. Big difference.

The biggest problem people who do not believe their prayers are being answered is their inability to see the answers when they’re right in front of them because they aren’t the answer they wanted.

I can pray to win the lotto…keep buying tickets, keep losing…in the meantime, I get a job opportunity which would increase my financial situation substantially but fail to apply for the job. Then I give up buying the lotto tickets in frustration convinced God doesn’t answer my prayers.
 
*Why did you think this was anti-Catholic? It sounds a bit anti-Christian mostly geared toward Fundies to me. If those bashing don’t know the difference, then they are just spewing more of what they say they despise – nonsense.
*
I know that it is mostly geared toward Fundamentalists, but I undestand that people like to use anti-Catholicism in their talks because in today’s age especially, it’s popular to be against Catholics, especially in regards to the morality debate. But whether it was anti-Catholic or anti-Christian, it just seems to me that there’s a growing zero-tolerance for Christians who want to establish values in a country that allows abortion, same-sex marriage, embyonic stem-cell research, and the like. That’s was probably the motivation behind that checklist.
 
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YinYangMom:
Hey there, Alan! :tiphat:

With regard to the .01% success rate of prayer…I beg to differ with your response here.

The actual success rate is 100%. The .01% is probably attributed to those prayers ‘answered in a way the person wanted it to be answered’. Big difference.

The biggest problem people who do not believe their prayers are being answered is their inability to see the answers when they’re right in front of them because they aren’t the answer they wanted.

I can pray to win the lotto…keep buying tickets, keep losing…in the meantime, I get a job opportunity which would increase my financial situation substantially but fail to apply for the job. Then I give up buying the lotto tickets in frustration convinced God doesn’t answer my prayers.
Sorry to be OT, but this reminds me of a joke I once heard:

A man was drowning, and he was a faithful Christian. He cried out to God to save him.

A man in a boat going down the river approached him and tried to help him aboard.

The drowning man said, “No, I’m waiting for God to save me.”

Then another person on a nearby bridge dropped a rope and told the man to grab on and he would pull him over to the shore or to a piling. The drowning man refused to grab the rope.

“No, I’m waiting for God to save me!”

Finally another man swam out from the shoreline with a PFD and offered it to the drowing man. The man said, “No! I’m waiting for God to save me!”

The man drowned, in spite of all the attempts to save his life.

When he arrived at the pearly gates he raved at God, “I cried out to you and you didn’t save me! Why didn’t you answer my desperate prayer!?”

God looked at him calmly and replied, “Who do you think sent the man on the boat, the one on the bridge and the swimmer out to save you?”

You make a great point and one some people just don’t get.

Back on topic…those who attack our Christian faith in such a way have an adjenda…they are not interested in hearing the truth or our responses because the sound of their own voices and the patter of little midless typing is God to them.

It is they who will have a surprise at the end.

Congratulations, all. We have just been persecuted again. Praise God!
 
I guess I can still proclaim myself not a Fundie, either Protestant or Catholic –
10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours
That’s their business, my job is to be a representative of Christ, if someone wants to be agnostic or atheist that’s ok with me
9 - You feel insulted and “dehumanized” when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
I have no problem with the belief of Natural Selection or an old Earth
8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
Nah, I don’t laugh at anyone, I might wonder at them??
7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the “atrocities” attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in “Exodus” and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” including women, children, and trees!
I believe that while those OT texts are likely historical they are merely that and while the perpetrators of those acts might have wanted to believe that God ordered them to kill innocents (or trees) they were merely acting on their own feelings about appropriate warfare at the time it was done – not acting on God’s orders –
6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
I don’t laugh at anyone, really – people are raised with beliefs that are dissimilar to mine and I won’t judge them to falling in line with their families faith when I so obviously fell in line with mine.
5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
Nope, old Earth – God Breathed
4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs – though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving.”
Actually I believe that God can save us in spite of ourselves and it’s far better to be a person who never really understands faith than to be a person who knows all about God and still rejects him
3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to “prove” Christianity.
Why do you think I converted? Those people are kooky
2 - You define 0.01% as a “high success rate” when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God
I’m pretty sure that God can say “no” as an “answer” and that even the worst of situations can teach us something about life
1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
I do know some very smart Atheists and Agnostics – but I totally know my Bible –
 
The most obvious characteristics about the “checklist” are the hatred, anger, and bitterness that accompanied its composition. It reveals much more about the people who wrote it than the people who answer it.

Its composers presume that Christians laugh at people because they themselves laugh at people. They are consumed by a sense of superiority and by an emptiness that results from ridiculing the beliefs of others while believing in nothing themselves.

Gee, if you’re going to try to denigrate Christians, at least get that 2x4 out of your eye first. And we’ll be praying to our Triune, Holy Spirit-conceived, murdered, resurrected, ascended God for you. We don’t laugh at people; we pray for them.
 
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morning_star_27:
Hello all! First of all, I would like to make clear that I am a Roman Catholic. I hate it when people try to generalize my beliefs into something that means to be offensive. Hence, this “checklist” I’ve found on a Axis of Justice forum. I found it as I was looking at Rock For Life.com and it’s Pro-Life and Pro-Abortion organizations. AOJ just happened to be the latter. Forgive me if this leaves you as outraged as it left me. I’m a strong opponent against anti-Catholicism, and I do not endorse these comments.
They weren’t particularly anti-Catholic; I read them as directed to the fundamentalists.

Actually, I found a good bit of humor in them, as many people who accept some of all of the beliefs getting jabbed have little ability to explain why - their apologetics pretty much comes down the the bumper sticker - “God said it, I believe it, and that ends it!”.
 
It’s humor nothing more

a bit more apropos for the fundies than the CC

everyone is entitled to their opinion

some things just aren’t worth getting upset over

(and some of that is kinda funny too)
 
morning_star_27 said:
*Why did you think this was anti-Catholic? It sounds a bit anti-Christian mostly geared toward Fundies to me. If those bashing don’t know the difference, then they are just spewing more of what they say they despise – nonsense.
*
I know that it is mostly geared toward Fundamentalists, but I undestand that people like to use anti-Catholicism in their talks because in today’s age especially, it’s popular to be against Catholics, especially in regards to the morality debate. But whether it was anti-Catholic or anti-Christian, it just seems to me that there’s a growing zero-tolerance for Christians who want to establish values in a country that allows abortion, same-sex marriage, embyonic stem-cell research, and the like. That’s was probably the motivation behind that checklist.

Given that I could find nothing that indicated that, how do you draw that conclusion? Is it based on the fact that many fundamentalists have those values? Even granting that, the questions we directed towards a literalims of the Bible, not moral issues.
 
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JCPhoenix:
Sorry to be OT, but this reminds me of a joke I once heard:

A man was drowning, and he was a faithful Christian. He cried out to God to save him.

A man in a boat going down the river approached him and tried to help him aboard.

The drowning man said, “No, I’m waiting for God to save me.”

Then another person on a nearby bridge dropped a rope and told the man to grab on and he would pull him over to the shore or to a piling. The drowning man refused to grab the rope.

“No, I’m waiting for God to save me!”

Finally another man swam out from the shoreline with a PFD and offered it to the drowing man. The man said, “No! I’m waiting for God to save me!”

The man drowned, in spite of all the attempts to save his life.

When he arrived at the pearly gates he raved at God, “I cried out to you and you didn’t save me! Why didn’t you answer my desperate prayer!?”

God looked at him calmly and replied, “Who do you think sent the man on the boat, the one on the bridge and the swimmer out to save you?”

You make a great point and one some people just don’t get.

Back on topic…those who attack our Christian faith in such a way have an adjenda…they are not interested in hearing the truth or our responses because the sound of their own voices and the patter of little midless typing is God to them.

It is they who will have a surprise at the end.

Congratulations, all. We have just been persecuted again. Praise God!
I was persecuted? Is laughing a sign that one has been persecuted?
 
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otm:
I was persecuted? Is laughing a sign that one has been persecuted?
I guess maybe so, if you are laughing in the knowledge that an attempt at persecution has been made, and you are thereby blessed for it.

Laugh with joy, and thank God.

Unless I’m totally lost as to what this is all about.

Alan
 
I will concede and say it’s not a direct attack on Catholics, but I sometimes put my defenses up whenever I see the word “Catholic” in anything that defames a religious group. The reason I came to such a consclusion because the website devotes most of its energy towards attacking Bush and also his stance on values. That’s pretty evident considering they wrote an article that calls his Supreme Court nominee (Roberts), who happens to be a Roman Catholic, “a right-wing hack”. I think they just have an agenda against people who want to follow God’s laws.
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otm:
Given that I could find nothing that indicated that, how do you draw that conclusion? Is it based on the fact that many fundamentalists have those values? Even granting that, the questions we directed towards a literalims of the Bible, not moral issues.
 
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severinus:
The most obvious characteristics about the “checklist” are the hatred, anger, and bitterness that accompanied its composition. It reveals much more about the people who wrote it than the people who answer it.

Its composers presume that Christians laugh at people because they themselves laugh at people. They are consumed by a sense of superiority and by an emptiness that results from ridiculing the beliefs of others while believing in nothing themselves.

Gee, if you’re going to try to denigrate Christians, at least get that 2x4 out of your eye first. And we’ll be praying to our Triune, Holy Spirit-conceived, murdered, resurrected, ascended God for you. We don’t laugh at people; we pray for them.
Well said. I tried to read some of the other “stuff” at that site and had to wash my computer off.
 
morning_star_27 said:
Why did you think this was anti-Catholic? It sounds a bit anti-Christian mostly geared toward Fundies to me. If those bashing don’t know the difference, then they are just spewing more of what they say they despise – nonsense.

I know that it is mostly geared toward Fundamentalists, but I undestand that people like to use anti-Catholicism in their talks because in today’s age especially, it’s popular to be against Catholics, especially in regards to the morality debate. But whether it was anti-Catholic or anti-Christian, it just seems to me that there’s a growing zero-tolerance for Christians who want to establish values in a country that allows abortion, same-sex marriage, embyonic stem-cell research, and the like. That’s was probably the motivation behind that checklist.

Catholics and other Christians are far from the only people with a moral sense.​

Unfortunately, objectionable as the tone of that list was, some Christians also behave in a rather objectionable manner; and some are extremely thick. Their ideas don’t become automatically valid because thick Christians are Christians. “Christian Reconstruction” is very strongly opposed to “abortion [and] same-sex marriage” - it is also very strongly opposed to Catholicism and other forms of what its supporters consider false religion. Since it is a movement to make the Law of Moses into the law of the USA, it is a good example of a far from “liberal” Christianity which is none the better for for being illiberal. A lot of people have such a phobia of “liberalism”, that they are blind to the dangers of “Christian Fascism”.

Rubbish is rubbish - whether it comes from Catholics, other Christians, atheists, or anyobody else. And should be disposed of accordingly ##
 
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