So, I was in a conversation with a Church of Christ member (and a Baptist)

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And they were discussing how they don’t like crosses in church because the people could actually start worshiping the cross (I thought they were going to go with the whole iconography thing, so I cut them off there, but, that’s not where they were going) & I asked, “Do you really believe anybody is that stupid where they would actually start WORSHIPING that piece of wood?” Hesitantly the CoC member said, “They could…” Anyway, since they don’t like crosses, you can imagine how they feel about crucifixes. 😃 I got a new one with this one (yes, I know, and I said, "If it wasn’t for that, we wouldn’t be where we are; that was His whole mission, empty cross means Roman soldiers interveined, it does not equal an empty tomb), besides, “He’s no longer there, he concured death”, I got:

“There is only one place outside of the Gospels in the New Testiment that talks about his suffering and crucifixion and that is in one of the Epistles.”

Does anybody know what this is? Has anybody heard this one before? Help is appreciated.
 
I’m not sure about the answer to your question; but I grew up Baptist (converted to Catholicism 15 years ago when I married), and I can tell you that there are a lot of misconceptions about Catholics out there. As a Baptist, I was under the impression that Catholics had an unhealthy relationship with crucifixes, statues and other visual items. I don’t think I ever thought that they “worshiped” these items, but I was very skeptical about them. After going through the RCIA classes to join the church, I was able to explain to other fundamentalists that these items are menat to be visual reminders of the life and death of Christ, and that we do not take these items to be the object of worship in any way. There are so many other misconceptions, and also just plain disagreements. One pentecostal friend has a problem with the Hail Mary and other prayers in which saints are asked to pray with or for us. She says that it says in scripture that that it tantamount to ‘communicating with the dead’ and that the bible warns against it. I explain to her that the saints were all people who are felt to be held in high regard by God and that we do not worship them, we only ask them to pray for us, much like we might ask our friends and neighbors to pray for us. I need to look up the scripture she is referring to. Does anyone know exactly where it is?
 
Well, 3boyzmom, I can tell you I know what they are talking about, and also contradict it, w/o quoting verbatim. Yes, contacting the dead is dangerous & forbidden by God (Old Testament AND CCC), BUT, the Saints are alive in Christ, are they not? 😉

ALSO, I was told by this guy (who is a dear friend, but, I’ve mentioned him on this forum before) that Jesus’ Ressurection is a symbol for baptism…has anybody heard* this*!!! I asked him why was Jesus then baptised and was told because He was being a perfect example for us. BUT, I am more concerned abou the only once more in the NT is Jesus’ suffering mentioned…I know, I know, it shouldn’t matter…
 
adstrinity: I’m not sure if this is what you’re looking for:

1 Corinthians 1:23 …but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness

1 Corinthians 2:2 - For I determined to know nothing among you except Christ and Him crucified.

Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

Galatians 6:14 But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ,
 
Jesus’ suffering is mentioned in

Acts 3:18, 17:3
Rom 8:17
2Cor 1:5
Phil 3:10
Heb 2:9, 10, 18; 5:8; 13:12
I Pet 2:21; 4:1, 13, 5:1
 
I am a little puzzled by the question. Mention that Jesus suffered and was crucified is all over the New Testament. Here’s a sampling:

Christ: suffer/suffered/suffering/sufferings/afflictions/wounds:

Acts 3:18; 17:3; 26:23; Romans 8:17; 2 Corinthians 1:5; Philippians 3:10; Colossians 1:24; Hebrews 2:9, 10, 18; 5:8; 11:36; 13:12; 1 Peter 1:11; 2:21, 23; 4:1, 13; 5:1.

Christ: crucified/crucify/hanging on a tree/death on a cross/endured the cross:

Acts 2:23, 36; 4:10; 5:30; 10:39; Romans 6:6; 1 Corinthians 1:23; 2:2, 8; 2 Corinthians 13:4; Galatians 2:20; 3:1; 5:24; Philippians 2:8; Hebrews 6:6; 12:2; Revelation 11:8.
 
I thank you everybody. I’ll ask him what he’s on about just to make sure, but, I was wondering if anybody else had heard about this. I thank you all again. God Bless. 🙂
 
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3boyzmom:
I’m not sure about the answer to your question; but I grew up Baptist (converted to Catholicism 15 years ago when I married), and I can tell you that there are a lot of misconceptions about Catholics out there. As a Baptist, I was under the impression that Catholics had an unhealthy relationship with crucifixes, statues and other visual items. I don’t think I ever thought that they “worshiped” these items, but I was very skeptical about them. After going through the RCIA classes to join the church, I was able to explain to other fundamentalists that these items are menat to be visual reminders of the life and death of Christ, and that we do not take these items to be the object of worship in any way. There are so many other misconceptions, and also just plain disagreements. One pentecostal friend has a problem with the Hail Mary and other prayers in which saints are asked to pray with or for us. She says that it says in scripture that that it tantamount to ‘communicating with the dead’ and that the bible warns against it. I explain to her that the saints were all people who are felt to be held in high regard by God and that we do not worship them, we only ask them to pray for us, much like we might ask our friends and neighbors to pray for us. I need to look up the scripture she is referring to. Does anyone know exactly where it is?
James 5:16.
 
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adstrinity:
… besides, “He’s no longer there, he concured death”, I got:

“There is only one place outside of the Gospels in the New Testiment that talks about his suffering and crucifixion and that is in one of the Epistles.”

Does anybody know what this is? Has anybody heard this one before? Help is appreciated.
In St. John’s vision of Heaven one Sunday when he was caught up in the Spirit on Patmos, he saw Jesus like this: “I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain” (Rev 5:6).

It appears that Catholics see Jesus much like he appeared to St. John in heaven, as though He had been slain. If this is wrong, then St. John has some ‘splainin’ to do.
 
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adstrinity:
And they were discussing how they don’t like crosses in church because the people could actually start worshiping the cross (I thought they were going to go with the whole iconography thing, so I cut them off there, but, that’s not where they were going) & I asked, “Do you really believe anybody is that stupid where they would actually start WORSHIPING that piece of wood?” Hesitantly the CoC member said, “They could…”…
We might add too how people start worshiping a book! Faith, Hope, Love. That is what we need. Reminders of our Faith like a crucifix, a bible, a nativity set, etc… are just nice resting places for our eyes while our hearts are filled with our three gifts. We don’t need a Bible to be a Christian nor do we need a crucifix, but they both help us remember and to pass on our Faith.

JMJ
 
adstrinity said:
“There is only one place outside of the Gospels in the New Testiment that talks about his suffering and crucifixion and that is in one of the Epistles.”

So are they saying therefore that the Gospels are unimportant? The passion narratives are a large part of the Gospels.
 
Regarding your Baptist friend’s claim that there’s only one place outside the Gospels where Jesus’ suffering and crucifixion are mentioned: even if this were true, what would be the point? Jesus’ passion and death were His whole reason for becoming man. I don’t understand why people have so much trouble with the continuation of Christ’s sacrifice. It’s not like we’re hurting Him over and over again; it’s that the sins we commit today were atoned for with His passion and death, thus the sacrifice and its relevance continue to this day. I think protestants do a great disservice to the Lord by refusing to remember His sacrifice and focusing only on the flowery happy parts of salvation.
 
Through the crucifix suffering has taken on a whole new meaning for me. I pity Christians who do not see this and who do not know the power of redemtive suffering.

To love is to suffer - pallotticenter.org/Current/ActivityOfTheWeek/to_love_is_to_suffer.htm

“Suffering, more than anything else, makes present in the history of humanity the powers of the Redemption”

“Your Crucifix: As a Christian, you should always carry a Crucifix with you. Place it on your desk. Kiss it before you go to bed and when you wake up. And when your poor body rebels against your soul, kiss your Crucifix!” – Bl. Msgr. Escriva, Camino 302.
 
I meant also to add that with regards to the communicating with the dead thing, I think they meant necromancy. When you try to talk to dead spirits to find out about the future, it is a sin because it’s divination and sorcery. However, praying for intercessions isn’t even trying to have a conversation with them. It is humbling oneself to ask for help. I wouldn’t even call it “communicating with the dead” per se because it’s a one way conversation, really. And i have heard that interpretation in a couple places, although i cannot recall where right now. Sorry, :o
 
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dafalax:
I meant also to add that with regards to the communicating with the dead thing, I think they meant necromancy. When you try to talk to dead spirits to find out about the future, it is a sin because it’s divination and sorcery. However, praying for intercessions isn’t even trying to have a conversation with them. It is humbling oneself to ask for help. I wouldn’t even call it “communicating with the dead” per se because it’s a one way conversation, really. And i have heard that interpretation in a couple places, although i cannot recall where right now. Sorry, :o
I have had this conversation with my protestant friends before. Look under library -Communion of Saints at catholic.com or read the excellent book Catholic and Christian, common misperceptions about the Catholic faith.

However, I still get stuck because they say, why talk to saints when you can talk directly to God? If God is all you need then why do you need to talk to them. Also, if it is a friend, then don’t friends have 2 way conversations? Anyone know how to refute those?
 
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breathespirit:
However, I still get stuck because they say, why talk to saints when you can talk directly to God?
Why talk to God at all? Doesn’t God know your heart? Doesn’t God know what you want before you ask? The Bible tells us that these are all attributes of God…so why pray at all?
Reason: Because God told us to.
Why talk to the saints? Why treat all Christians as family, present or not?
Reason: Because God told us to.
If God is all you need then why do you need to talk to them.
Need? You don’t strictly need them. However, they are God’s family. Imagine falling in love with someone, wanting to marry them, and when they say, “Do you want to meet my family?” you respond, “Nope. I don’t want anything to do with them. I love you. Why would I want to meet them when I am in love with you? It would distract me from my focus on you.” See how silly that is? Can you see how God might even find that offensive? Once you put it in a family context, it’s clear to see that God wants his children to love each other, and that commandment is not rescinded at death.
Also, if it is a friend, then don’t friends have 2 way conversations?
Is God their friend? Do they have a 2 way conversation with God? If yes, you may want to tell them to ask God why Catholics want to know God’s family through the Saints, and see what God has to say. If they say no, they don’t have a 2 way conversation with God, you may explain that it is a similar situation as with the Saints.

God Bless,
RyanL
 
Thanks! Very insightful. I knew of the second answer but didn’t think to put the 2 together!
 
Many have given really terrific answers here that should help you in yor discussions. I canot add to the wonderful scriptures that have been quoted so…

One approach that I use to get to the point where we discuss the scriptures (as in posts above) is to begin by asking them to show pictures of family (kids, parents, loved ones). Then I discuss common objects that have meaning, for example: 1] “on the mall in Washington DC is a black granite wall inscribed with names. It is 'just a block of granite that is etched, right? But that is not how Americans view that hunk of stone. It evinces emotions that are very real. I discuss a nation at odds with it self. War and the deathh, lost dreams, loved on lost and loved ones left behind, riots protests, etc.” or 2] Grandmas rocker that “came out west on the wagon trains” you get the idea. Then I go the the Sacraments, symbols and sacramentals that are found throughout Christianity and the Catholic Church.

Human beings are sacramental (St Thomas writes about this but hard to get someone to read him so I attempt, if feabily, to illustrate] beings and the sacraments and sacramentals [not to be confused] ar a part of our existance. I try to get them to see this, even if it exists for them outside of their religious experience.

As for praying to the Saints: On some of the earliest tombs are the inscriptions like this “St Peter, pray for us” and we are called to ‘pray unceasingly’ and ‘for each other’

Also, there is references to martyrs in Revelation asking Jesus about revenging their deaths and JEsus responding that their numbers were not yet complete. As this takes place befoer the final judgement, it implies that there are Saints in Heaven speaking with Jesus and receiving information about the believers still on earth and they are praying in heaven. Sounds like the Communion of Saints to me.

I was raised and baptized in the Church of Christ. They work very hard to strip this aspect of human nature from their worship experience. This is done out of a fear of falling into idolatry, something they believe that Catholics do and do to excess. These are very nice, Christ loving Christians, who read and love scripture. Their founders had a fear and revulsion to the Catholic faith and practices. Most Church of Christ members do not even realize this about their history but it is there in what they are taught. I have rarely met a Church of Christ person [active in their church] who I was not a good citizen and a loving Christian. Heaven is probably full of them, praising Jesus and singing the ‘Holy, Holy, Holy’ as we do at each mass!
 
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