So what exactly is a Miracle? Can it be tested for?

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SO here’s a question i ask every so often of the various people of faith and i tend to get back one of two responses:

1.) Violation of the Natural Order

2.) The Utilization of an Unknown Natural Law

What’s the Catholic standpoint?

A question related to this is - is there any way to actually confirm or test for a miracle?

Part of the problem i see immediately for this would be how to ascribe Causation? Did something happen simply because circumstances would work out this way - or due to the hand of a divine presence?

Is there no clear cut rule?
 
Wow…and i thought this would be the topic people would be willing to speak about.
 
I think Christians are always willing to discuss miracles with other Christians, but are less inclined to discuss them with atheists. If you don’t believe in God, what chance have I of getting anywhere with you on the subject of miracles?
 
SO here’s a question i ask every so often of the various people of faith and i tend to get back one of two responses:

1.) Violation of the Natural Order

2.) The Utilization of an Unknown Natural Law

What’s the Catholic standpoint?

A question related to this is - is there any way to actually confirm or test for a miracle?

Part of the problem i see immediately for this would be how to ascribe Causation? Did something happen simply because circumstances would work out this way - or due to the hand of a divine presence?

Is there no clear cut rule?
Going strictly from what I remember being taught attending a Catholic grade school. A miracle would be described as an exception(I am almost sure that was the exact word used) to the laws of nature/physics.
 
God has revealed himself to a select few in recorded and oral history. Do miracles occur? Absolutely. This is doctrine.

In “testing” for miracles one come dangerously close to approaching a desire for the scientific proof of God. This will never happen. He that is above and beyond all that exists requires faith for salvation. Scientific “proof” reduces God to science and eliminates faith.

He will come again and all will see and science will have no meaning.
 
God has revealed himself to a select few in recorded and oral history. Do miracles occur? Absolutely. This is doctrine.

In “testing” for miracles one come dangerously close to approaching a desire for the scientific proof of God. This will never happen. He that is above and beyond all that exists requires faith for salvation. Scientific “proof” reduces God to science and eliminates faith.

He will come again and all will see and science will have no meaning.
This is not exactly a Catholic understanding (though it is one that many in the Protestant tradition would affirm).

Actually, it is a *de fide *teaching of the Church that the existence of God is knowable through natural reason, and hence, God’s existence is a kind of scientific knowledge. It is not, however, an empirical sceince (dealing only with matter), but rather belongs to the science of philosophy (the most important of the natural sciences). To accept God’s existence does not require faith necessarily. Faith involves accepting certain propositions which we cannot independently prove on God’s on authority as being revealed. Hence, anything that we can prove through natural reason does not necessarily require faith (though it can involve faith for those who do not understand the proofs).

That being said,

TheAtheist asks what is a miracle? A miracle is a supernatural intervention in the natural world. Can miracles be scientifically tested? Most certainly. Essentially a miracle could have no known/possible scienfic explanation, and so when a supposed miracle occurs, the Church has experts in the sciences come and investigate the claims to see if some possible explanation can be found.

People speak of miracles very loosely these days (and I suppose have always done so), which might only help to add confusion. People say, “Oh, it was a miracle that I found this job, etc” technically speaking, these kinds of these have natural explanations and are not technically miracles. Although they may be from God (and hence part of God’s Divine Providence), they are not actually supernatural interventions (which alter the manner in which the natural laws would normally proceed).

How does one determine causality? Let me give an example that one of my Theology professors gave to me. Say for instance that teh desk in my room began to float in the air. Is this a miracle? I don’t know yet. I feel under the desk to make sure nothing is pushing it up, and I feel over the desk to make sure nothing is suspending it. I bring in equipment to determine if there are any strong magnetif feilds at work that could accomplish such a feat. I test and I test, and consult experts, and still can find nothing. Do I now conclude this is a miracle? If I had no other information, I would most certainly not make this conclusion. Unexplained phenomena do not a miracle make. A miracle is supposed to be a sign which proves the validity of a certain message. So, if before the desk started to float, I heard a voice that sounded like God say “Give your next paycheck to the poor.” Then I might conclude that the dest floating was a miracle sent from God to prove that the message was really from Him.

The entire purpose of miracles is to provide us with proof, so to say that one woudl not test them, is contrary to the very nature of miracles.
 
How would one go about testing for something that defies being tested for? It doesn’t make sense.

A miracle is someone pretending something unexplainable happened. I’m sure there’s a way that we can test for that. People love to tell stories.
 
SO here’s a question i ask every so often of the various people of faith and i tend to get back one of two responses:

1.) Violation of the Natural Order
Violation of Law, has in it the assumption that physical law is ultimate reality. A miracle is simply an event that happens outside the natural powers of physics. It is either a divine or supernatural act. It is usually to do with God acting. However God can bestow upon creatures supernatural powers.

One can make an inference of a supernatural event or a miracle, if they can find an effect in nature that doesn’t follow from the laws of physical reality. For instance personal will, is an effect in nature that doesn’t follow necessarily from naturally occurring events. What i mean by this is that when you will to do something, it isn’t because some thing in nature has forced you to do it, it is because you will it. Though some aspects of your being is determined by prior events (and you are certainly influenced by events), your personal will isn’t totally determined by natural events. Every time you command an action, a supernatural event is occurring.

We cannot prove a miracle scientifically. A miracle can only be measured by its “wake”, or a discontinuity in space-time; but this would not be empirical proof, but rather it is a logical proof. For instance we know that energy cannot be created or destroyed so far as natural events are concerned. However if we were to see energy suddenly appear out of nowhere, we could reasonably consider this to be a supernatural or miraculous event, since we know things do not come out of nowhere and that nature left to itself follows the principles of physical causality. Therefore we can infer that there are transcendent realities that we cannot measure with the senses. But although this might be a logical inference, it will never be empirical.
 
The word “miracle” has been diluted by laundry soap commercials, and regrettably, by various religions.

In the laundry soap context, it means nothing.

In the religious context, it typically means “something that God did which is outside our understandings of what can be done, or how it might be done.”

Statistical coincidences of low probability are often called miracles, because “miracle” is easier to say than “statistical coincidence,” and avoids the question, “And what grade did you get in your Probability Theory course?”

All miracles of which people conventionally speak are of the religious or coincidental nature. Essentially, they represent a technology which we do not understand. Christ could heal people with a touch, and presumably a touch more with his mind than his hands. Uri Geller can bend spoons and other metal objects, with his mind— and he doesn’t even know how he does it. Miracles of this sort are essentially a higher technology---- a Zippo lighter flicked in front of a previously undiscovered primitive tribe accustomed to starting fires the hard way.

Presumably Christ’s miracles are things that he knew how to do. That makes them a powerful mental or spiritual technology. The creation of the universe by God is not really a miracle, because God knew how to do it. That makes it a technology. A very high level of technology that we don’t know, but still just a technology.

There is another category of Miracle, but it is not defined in any literature I know of outside my own, or in Webster’s, and is to the best of my knowledge not recognized by any conventional religious system. You don’t need to worry about it.

A more interesting question than the definition of miracle might be why the thread initiator wants to know?
 
greylorn

The creation of the universe by God is not really a miracle, because God knew how to do it.

I think I’ll take issue with this. The reason is the implication of the logic: namely, that since God knows how to do everything, there can be no miracles.

A miracle needs to be some manifestation of God’s power that transcends the order of nature. Creation of something from nothing, then, would be a miracle. Creation of the universe shows a transcendent power over the natural law, not only because God initiated creation, but also because He sustains everything in existence. The universe with all its natural laws at work still constitutes an ongoing miracle, and one for which there is still no natural understanding.

Since a miracle transcends the order of nature, we cannot be expected to understand the process by which miracles happen, though we may suspect that the power of prayer is very much at play in the granting of some miracles.
 
A question related to this is - is there any way to actually confirm or test for a miracle?
The best you’ll get from the scientific community is “no explanation exists at present for what happened.”

The Church has a whole set of procedures for testing whether a miracle occurred, including making sure that science has no explanation for what happened, that no “magic” (sleight of hand) could have happened, that someone was actually praying for a miracle at the time that the incident occurred, etc.
 
greylorn

The creation of the universe by God is not really a miracle, because God knew how to do it.

I think I’ll take issue with this. The reason is the implication of the logic: namely, that since God knows how to do everything, there can be no miracles.

A miracle needs to be some manifestation of God’s power that transcends the order of nature. Creation of something from nothing, then, would be a miracle. Creation of the universe shows a transcendent power over the natural law, not only because God initiated creation, but also because He sustains everything in existence. The universe with all its natural laws at work still constitutes an ongoing miracle, and one for which there is still no natural understanding.

Since a miracle transcends the order of nature, we cannot be expected to understand the process by which miracles happen, though we may suspect that the power of prayer is very much at play in the granting of some miracles.
Kindly reexamine my post. I was defining a super-order of “miracle.” Logic is not involved in definitions, as it is not with axioms.

You have adopted a religious definition of miracle, which is fine. I’ve proposed a higher level of miracle, to which your religious definitions do not apply.
 
There are no miracles outside of God and neither does coincidence exist. One who thinks that there is a alternate kind of miracle is deceived by The Liar who would have flawed man exhalt himself and his thinking above and beyond a perfect God.
 
There are no miracles outside of God and neither does coincidence exist. One who thinks that there is a alternate kind of miracle is deceived by The Liar who would have flawed man exhalt himself and his thinking above and beyond a perfect God.
The existence of God is an example of the “alternate” miracle,

All other events, no matter how improbable they are, no matter how far beyond our ability to comprehend, are simply Zippo lighters flicked on to impress cavemen.

Events do occur which defy prediction, and a branch of mathematics known as Probability Theory exists to describe them. Its founder was Blaise Pascal www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Pascal.html.

I recommend Pascal because in addition to being a brilliant mathematician, he was also a first-rate Catholic philosopher who used probability theory to devise, not a proof, but a decent reason why everyone should believe in God. He had no trouble with coincidences.

When I was young and knew everything, reading the thoughts of others allowed me to learn a small measure of ignorance.
 
The best you’ll get from the scientific community is “no explanation exists at present for what happened.”

The Church has a whole set of procedures for testing whether a miracle occurred, including making sure that science has no explanation for what happened, that no “magic” (sleight of hand) could have happened, that someone was actually praying for a miracle at the time that the incident occurred, etc.
Do these investigations get written up somewhere - a “journal of miracle studies”, or something? I’d be interested to read some of them. I think if the normal laws of physics were being broken on a regular basis, a lot of scientists would be interested to know about it.
 
Do these investigations get written up somewhere - a “journal of miracle studies”, or something? I’d be interested to read some of them. I think if the normal laws of physics were being broken on a regular basis, a lot of scientists would be interested to know about it.
Not that I know of. Reports of individual instances appear in various Catholic magazines and newspapers, but I don’t know of any comprehensive collection.
 
Not that I know of. Reports of individual instances appear in various Catholic magazines and newspapers, but I don’t know of any comprehensive collection./QUOTE

Doesn’t one have to have performed an authenticated miracle to be made a saint? I’d have thought that must have some official documentation somewhere?
 
Do these investigations get written up somewhere - a “journal of miracle studies”, or something? I’d be interested to read some of them. I think if the normal laws of physics were being broken on a regular basis, a lot of scientists would be interested to know about it.
I don’t know about written documentation but just watch some of Benny Hinn’s shows. Every week he lines up a bunch of sick people, hits them in the face and presto they are cured. Definitely miracles and all done live in front of audiences of thousands. If he was catholic then he would probably already be declared a saint.
 
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