Socrates and Jesus

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Weird Website said:
Jesus: Wait, do not leave! You must save your soul from eternal damnation. Accept God into your heart. I will not go, till you say aye to me.

Socrates: Yes. These are only the idle thoughts of an old man. 'Tis certain you are right, since you have so many followers. And who am I, a dull-witted old man to put reason and philosophy above the voices of the multitude.

Jesus: Thank God for giving you eternal life.

Socrates was gone.

Uh…
:ehh:
Well…
:hmmm:
…nope, sorry.
Don’t think that’s how it works.
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ceciliatherese:
can someone please explain this to me?
You mean, aside from: :whacky: ?

…I’m not sure it’s worth the effort, honestly.
In fact, I’m pretty sure it’s NOT worth the effort. 😃
I would honestly say just ignore it and move on with your life. 👍

But were there any specific questions you had regarding this, or after reading this?
 
Uh…
:ehh:
Well…
:hmmm:
…nope, sorry.
Don’t think that’s how it works.

You mean, aside from: :whacky: ?

…I’m not sure it’s worth the effort, honestly.
In fact, I’m pretty sure it’s NOT worth the effort. 😃
I would honestly say just ignore it and move on with your life. 👍

But were there any specific questions you had regarding this, or after reading this?
Lol, it is rather strange. But the problem is I’ve been having doubts about God in general and whether He really makes sense or not, and I don’t think I can just ignore it and move on with my life. I have to know what God I’m worshipping, if you know what I mean. (please, don’t anyone attack me for this) I’m just a teenager, so I guess a lot of teenagers have doubts about various religious things, but there are some problems I just can’t ignore, like some of the points raised in this thing. And no one has really been able to answer me, aside from, in a nutshell, 'these actions may seem immoral, but since God is all Good, they can not be immoral". Well, how do we come to the conclusion then that God is all Good, if not by his actions?
I hope this makes sense. And if anyone is looking to attack me for this, as I’ve seen done in many other threads, I will simply post somewhere else where people will hopefully be more understanding and less judgmental.
Thank you! 😃
 
And no one has really been able to answer me, aside from, in a nutshell, 'these actions may seem immoral, but since God is all Good, they can not be immoral". Well, how do we come to the conclusion then that God is all Good, if not by his actions?
This is a very tough question, and I don’t think there are any easy answers. I would suggest doing a search to find previous threads that address this. Here’s one recent thread that might shed a little light on the issue:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=339716
 
Lol, it is rather strange. But the problem is I’ve been having doubts about God in general and whether He really makes sense or not, and I don’t think I can just ignore it and move on with my life. I have to know what God I’m worshipping, if you know what I mean. (please, don’t anyone attack me for this) I’m just a teenager, so I guess a lot of teenagers have doubts about various religious things, but there are some problems I just can’t ignore, like some of the points raised in this thing. And no one has really been able to answer me, aside from, in a nutshell, 'these actions may seem immoral, but since God is all Good, they can not be immoral". Well, how do we come to the conclusion then that God is all Good, if not by his actions?
I hope this makes sense. And if anyone is looking to attack me for this, as I’ve seen done in many other threads, I will simply post somewhere else where people will hopefully be more understanding and less judgmental.
Thank you! 😃
There are different levels of understanding Christian doctrine.

The literal level is the level most susceptible to philosophical criticism (as you can see in the Socrates/Jesus debate).

But there are psychological, spiritual/philosophical, and divine levels of understanding Christian doctrine, as well.

It’s easy to critique the literal level. It’s the other levels that are more interesting.🙂
 
But the problem is I’ve been having doubts about God in general and whether He really makes sense or not, and I don’t think I can just ignore it and move on with my life. I have to know what God I’m worshipping, if you know what I mean.

I’m just a teenager, so I guess a lot of teenagers have doubts about various religious things, but there are some problems I just can’t ignore, like some of the points raised in this thing. And no one has really been able to answer me, aside from, in a nutshell, 'these actions may seem immoral, but since God is all Good, they can not be immoral". Well, how do we come to the conclusion then that God is all Good, if not by his actions?
Fair enough, and good questions.

But I guess it seems to me a bit too much for one thread.
I would suggest that you read some old threads on these matters (use the forum search feature), and then when you’ve read a bit, start to take part in a current thread regarding one of these questions, or feel free to start your own if there isn’t currently one happening.
(please, don’t anyone attack me for this)
I hope this makes sense. And if anyone is looking to attack me for this, as I’ve seen done in many other threads, I will simply post somewhere else where people will hopefully be more understanding and less judgmental.
In my experience, people around here only get attacked when the start defending a certain position, or when they start attacking another position themselves. But if you just want to stick to asking questions honestly and politely, you definitely shouldn’t have any problems at all. 🙂
 
I would not advise you to research with internet materials, or anything written in recent history, for that matter. Thought processes are not nearly thorough enough to give an exhaustive treatment of the topic. What is more, modern-day logic is so poor, it is almost nonexistant

I think it is dangerous for you to draw conclusions that are life-changing based on shoddy arguments with phony evidence. You would do well to read the saints. They give much evidence for the existence of God and His Divine Plan.

Much of your problem is that you are looking at it from the perspective of someone who wishes to sway your belief. It empowers him to do so. If you are going to be skeptical, be skeptical of God’s critics, most of all.

I say these things to you because I have made the same mistakes. Developing an entire philosophy of life based on one book, or internet site, is tempting, but, there is a lot of c*** out there. People just throw it out there to see what sticks. Read the saints. A good start is St. Francis DeSales. He is pleasant and uplifting. Compare these people to the jokers you are giving credence to now. I guarantee you, you will not go back to it.
 
I would not advise you to research with internet materials, or anything written in recent history, for that matter. Thought processes are not nearly thorough enough to give an exhaustive treatment of the topic. What is more, modern-day logic is so poor, it is almost nonexistant

I think it is dangerous for you to draw conclusions that are life-changing based on shoddy arguments with phony evidence. You would do well to read the saints. They give much evidence for the existence of God and His Divine Plan.

Much of your problem is that you are looking at it from the perspective of someone who wishes to sway your belief. It empowers him to do so. If you are going to be skeptical, be skeptical of God’s critics, most of all.

I say these things to you because I have made the same mistakes. Developing an entire philosophy of life based on one book, or internet site, is tempting, but, there is a lot of c*** out there. People just throw it out there to see what sticks. Read the saints. A good start is St. Francis DeSales. He is pleasant and uplifting. Compare these people to the jokers you are giving credence to now. I guarantee you, you will not go back to it.
Well, l never said I was drawing conclusions. I said that this is one of the many things I have read about God that bother me. I have been trying to find answers for several months, because my own conscience when I read the Old Testament and things like that troubles me, and I can’t just accept it with blind faith. I’d love to, I’d love to have no doubts at all about God and believe him to be the loving Father that I always thought Him to be, but I just can’t until I find proof that He actually is. Yes, I have read many Saints books, mostly before I started to have doubts. Thank you for the advice though, maybe I should read some more.
 
There are different levels of understanding Christian doctrine.

The literal level is the level most susceptible to philosophical criticism (as you can see in the Socrates/Jesus debate).

But there are psychological, spiritual/philosophical, and divine levels of understanding Christian doctrine, as well.

It’s easy to critique the literal level. It’s the other levels that are more interesting.🙂
Yes, trying to understand those too 😃
 
Fair enough, and good questions.

But I guess it seems to me a bit too much for one thread.
I would suggest that you read some old threads on these matters (use the forum search feature), and then when you’ve read a bit, start to take part in a current thread regarding one of these questions, or feel free to start your own if there isn’t currently one happening.

In my experience, people around here only get attacked when the start defending a certain position, or when they start attacking another position themselves. But if you just want to stick to asking questions honestly and politely, you definitely shouldn’t have any problems at all. 🙂
k, maybe I will.
 
Oh, I remember teenagerhood, and all its attendant doubts. It was no fun.

Here’s the problem with stupid arguments: it takes a lot more words to refute them than it does to make them. For instance, I read the editorial page every morning. Without fail, there is at least one gormlessly bad piece of argument somewhere on the page, usually at a word count of 650. A mere surface rebuttal takes 650 words in reply; a full response several times that. And, the dumber the argument, the more needs to be said to show the problems.

This article you’ve posted is 6,500 words long, and is fathomlessly stupid. A full response could easily top 20,000 words, and, not only would that take me several days to write, it would also be very tedious. And then the counter-arguments, and the counter-counter-arguments… you know how it goes on the Internet. So many people need help, and there’s not enough time for the few helpers to help everyone.

So here’s the thing: if you want answers, you’re going to have to do most of the legwork yourself. I guess that’s pretty much like life. Here are a few of my favorite starting places when dealing with the existence of God, Christian belief, and Catholicism in particular:

(1) If we follow our reason faithfully, it will lead us to truth. If religion is true (and, by gum, it had better be), reason will lead us to it. If religion is false, then religion is worse than useless. If religion is false, then religion is the enemy.

(2) If what troubles you is that you do not believe in God, try looking over some of the arguments for His existence. If you’re especially brave and especially smart, dip your fingers into the great Summa Theologica, especially Q2A3, Q3A1, and Q6A1. If you are not especially smart (most of us aren’t; I certainly wasn’t) and you find Aquinas’s arguments difficult or even stupid, I suggest Ralph McInerny’s brilliant introduction to Aquinas, A First Glance at St. Thomas Aquinas: A Handbook for Peeping Thomists.

(3) If what troubles you is the possibility that Jesus was not the risen son of God, look into Peter Kreeft’s possible explanations for the story of the Resurrection or even his general discussion of the divinity of Christ.

(4) If what troubles you is the teaching of Christianity in general, especially on moral matters, I recommend C.S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity, which can be purchased here or read for free online here (I’m sure C.S. wouldn’t mind).

(5) If what troubles you is the idea that the Catholic Church is the one, true, and infallible Church of Christ, try one of Catholic Answers’ own tracts on the subject. I’m personally partial to this one, but there are many others.

(6) If what troubles you is the existence of evil in a universe ruled by a good God (and human accountability for evil acts)–and this does seem to be your main problem, based on my quick skim of the article you linked–try these: Mere Christianity, which I linked above, has some discussion of the problem, and proves fairly accurately (I think) that the mere existence of the “problem of evil” proves the existence of God. Lewis goes into much more depth in his earlier book, The Problem of Pain (which you can get from Amazon here, although I’m sure you can find it illegally on the Internet if you look for five minutes). The great Catholic disciple of Lewis, Peter Kreeft, has an brief but insiightful examination in chapter 7 of his Fundamentals of the Faith. This chapter has been happily and legally excerpted in its entirety here.

(7) Having read these works, you will hopefully find many answers. You will also find, in the end, that some of your questions have not gone away, but your reading will have helped you to sharpen and refine your questions, then pointed you towards still more reading to answer the more intelligent questions you’ll then have. Then you will have to go out and look some more, and, over a lifetime, you’ll understand more and more answers while at the same time forever uncovering more and more new questions. Such is life in a church rooted in reason. You won’t always have these doubts, but you will always be searching for new answers. The fact that you have to do this first round of searching on your own is a scandal against our Catholic high schools, but, hey, we all knew Christianity was going to be hard work when we signed up for it. Some of the hard work is intellectual.

(8) As Spock said, “Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.” Faith begins in reason, but it doesn’t end there. Keep praying, and devote yourself always to Christ.
 
Oh, I remember teenagerhood, and all its attendant doubts. It was no fun.

Here’s the problem with stupid arguments: it takes a lot more words to refute them than it does to make them. For instance, I read the editorial page every morning. Without fail, there is at least one gormlessly bad piece of argument somewhere on the page, usually at a word count of 650. A mere surface rebuttal takes 650 words in reply; a full response several times that. And, the dumber the argument, the more needs to be said to show the problems.

This article you’ve posted is 6,500 words long, and is fathomlessly stupid. A full response could easily top 20,000 words, and, not only would that take me several days to write, it would also be very tedious. And then the counter-arguments, and the counter-counter-arguments… you know how it goes on the Internet. So many people need help, and there’s not enough time for the few helpers to help everyone.

So here’s the thing: if you want answers, you’re going to have to do most of the legwork yourself. I guess that’s pretty much like life. Here are a few of my favorite starting places when dealing with the existence of God, Christian belief, and Catholicism in particular:

(1) If we follow our reason faithfully, it will lead us to truth. If religion is true (and, by gum, it had better be), reason will lead us to it. If religion is false, then religion is worse than useless. If religion is false, then religion is the enemy.

(2) If what troubles you is that you do not believe in God, try looking over some of the arguments for His existence. If you’re especially brave and especially smart, dip your fingers into the great Summa Theologica, especially Q2A3, Q3A1, and Q6A1. If you are not especially smart (most of us aren’t; I certainly wasn’t) and you find Aquinas’s arguments difficult or even stupid, I suggest Ralph McInerny’s brilliant introduction to Aquinas, A First Glance at St. Thomas Aquinas: A Handbook for Peeping Thomists.

(3) If what troubles you is the possibility that Jesus was not the risen son of God, look into Peter Kreeft’s possible explanations for the story of the Resurrection or even his general discussion of the divinity of Christ.

(4) If what troubles you is the teaching of Christianity in general, especially on moral matters, I recommend C.S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity, which can be purchased here or read for free online here (I’m sure C.S. wouldn’t mind).

(5) If what troubles you is the idea that the Catholic Church is the one, true, and infallible Church of Christ, try one of Catholic Answers’ own tracts on the subject. I’m personally partial to this one, but there are many others.

(6) If what troubles you is the existence of evil in a universe ruled by a good God (and human accountability for evil acts)–and this does seem to be your main problem, based on my quick skim of the article you linked–try these: Mere Christianity, which I linked above, has some discussion of the problem, and proves fairly accurately (I think) that the mere existence of the “problem of evil” proves the existence of God. Lewis goes into much more depth in his earlier book, The Problem of Pain (which you can get from Amazon here, although I’m sure you can find it illegally on the Internet if you look for five minutes). The great Catholic disciple of Lewis, Peter Kreeft, has an brief but insiightful examination in chapter 7 of his Fundamentals of the Faith. This chapter has been happily and legally excerpted in its entirety here.

(7) Having read these works, you will hopefully find many answers. You will also find, in the end, that some of your questions have not gone away, but your reading will have helped you to sharpen and refine your questions, then pointed you towards still more reading to answer the more intelligent questions you’ll then have. Then you will have to go out and look some more, and, over a lifetime, you’ll understand more and more answers while at the same time forever uncovering more and more new questions. Such is life in a church rooted in reason. You won’t always have these doubts, but you will always be searching for new answers. The fact that you have to do this first round of searching on your own is a scandal against our Catholic high schools, but, hey, we all knew Christianity was going to be hard work when we signed up for it. Some of the hard work is intellectual.

(8) As Spock said, “Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.” Faith begins in reason, but it doesn’t end there. Keep praying, and devote yourself always to Christ.
Thank you so much! Yes, we have the Problem of Pain, and I’ll definitely read it.
 
Thank you so much! Yes, we have the Problem of Pain, and I’ll definitely read it.
My pleasure, cecilia. Ten years ago, I was where you are now, and I wouldn’t have made it through with my faith intact if I hadn’t had a lot of help. It’s a joy to be able to pass on just a fraction of what I received to new and hungry ears. So thank you, and I wish you all the best.
 
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